An overly lengthy discussion of the KnoxGothic camera policy

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shadow dancer
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Post by shadow dancer »

Caustic wrote:
DarkVader wrote:First, it says that if you take pictures at a KG event, you CAN post them on the net, you CAN give copies of them away, and you CAN do whatever you would normally do with them, as long as you don't charge people money for them.


Sure, until somebody from KnoxGothic decides you can't, since you've signed off your rights of ownership.

What guarantees do you offer? Because I may be paranoid, but phrases such as...

Relax. This is good for everybody.


...never inspire me with confidence.


You seem to be really unnerved by this whole thing, and I can understand that. Photography and the rights to that work is very important to some people around here. The best thing that we can do right now, so that an agreement can be reached to try and please all involved is to offer alternative suggestions to taking away the copyright. I think I've found the legal protection from having photographs sold online without the subject's permission, and that is being double checked by a couple of lawyers right now in case the situation ever arises again. As for the rest of the problems, I'm not sure. Rather than saying just what you don't like about the policy, what alternative suggestions do you have for the remainder of the policy? I'm not sure about the KGB, but that's the kind of input that I would want and need from a conversation to consider a change to a policy.
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Post by Caustic »

shadow dancer wrote:...what alternative suggestions do you have for the remainder of the policy?


Perhaps you've not been reading my posts, and I can understand that. I've mentioned Creative Commons as a suggestion, along with following the current procedure regarding copyright, which is to prosecute the offenders rather than take rights away from the innocent. I've also pointed out serious flaws with the contract, which is to say, having people signing a document so near vast quantities of alcohol, especially when dealing with a medium which could be used as evidence of an altered state of mind.

That's okay; I'm a hateful windbag and can repeat myself as often as necessary.
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Post by Mother Mo »

Seems like if they are signing the document at the door upon entry, they hopefully would not already be drunk?
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Post by shadow dancer »

Caustic wrote:I've mentioned Creative Commons as a suggestion

Yes, I did read that. It was mentioned with a follow up of "even though I find that a bit ludicrous as well". Kudos on the encouraging suggestion.

along with following the current procedure regarding copyright, which is to prosecute the offenders rather than take rights away from the innocent

Unless someone can give a factual-based opinion otherwise, I think that the only person that could potentially have a case bought against him/her was the photographer that was trying to sell the photos without the subject's permission, and only then if the photographer actually sold one of those images. Based on what I am reading and trying to get clairification on is that by "right of privacy", using an individual's likeness for commercial sale without that person's permission is valid for a case only if one of those photographs is sold, but not otherwise. That part of the issue may be protected by the law already. The only scapegoat is that if the photo is taken at a newsworthy event, then the photo is legal, or at least that's my understanding. Considering that Sanctus has been featured in the Metropulse and other in-town articles, I am trying to find out what constitutes a "newsworthy event".

At this time, if someone comes into Sanctus and takes pictures of other people there and posts them all over the web, there is no way of making the individual take them down. In my opinion, that's a personal risk that is taken at any event I attend; however, other people appear to have been upset by some of this in the past.


I've also pointed out serious flaws with the contract, which is to say, having people signing a document so near vast quantities of alcohol, especially when dealing with a medium which could be used as evidence of an altered state of mind.

Anyone at any time can sign a contract anywhere while under the influence of alcohol unless there is a breathalyzer present, and even then, it could be questionable. Granted, it is more believable at Sanctus, but that case could be argued with any contract. A contract isn't the ultimate solution, but it may be a start in the right direction in order to prevent unwanted pictures publicly posted or distributed. That being said, I will reiterate that I wouldn't want it to require the photographer to give up copyright privileges. If a contract won't fully seal the deal, exactly what part of the law will protect attendees from unwanted pictures?


Personally, with all the problems and disagreement, I'm all for banning cameras at Sanctus period. It puts an end to the arguing and everyone keeps their work. A good portion of the clubs that I've been to outside this area have already done that. However, I know that a lot of people enjoy taking pictures throughout the night and having them to look at afterwards.
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Post by Bone »

Caustic wrote:
shadow dancer wrote:...what alternative suggestions do you have for the remainder of the policy?


Perhaps you've not been reading my posts, and I can understand that. I've mentioned Creative Commons as a suggestion, along with following the current procedure regarding copyright, which is to prosecute the offenders rather than take rights away from the innocent. I've also pointed out serious flaws with the contract, which is to say, having people signing a document so near vast quantities of alcohol, especially when dealing with a medium which could be used as evidence of an altered state of mind.

That's okay; I'm a hateful windbag and can repeat myself as often as necessary.


After a quick look at all I can see is Creative Commans is a web site for hosting pre-existing images, with liscenses for fair use. No help there for this issue. Unless you have some genius idea of how to make that work

As to the alcohol, it could be a problem, but not likely. A visiably intoxicated person should not be allowed entrance to the venue to begin with. In fact TN state law forbids serving a visiably intoxicated person. As the agreement/contract is signed at the door kinda voids this arguement...so long as the door guys are doing their job.
If you are truely concernedwith this. the contract can be simply taken care of through e-mail before the event and no walk-up cameras will be allowed period.
This is not a route we want to go unless we have to.

We are just investigating all reasonible possibilities. Unfortunately, getting to talk with lawyers and legal advisors takes time. The Lawyers then have to research the law. This issue may take a while, and may not change much of anything.

There will be a camera policy. Until something better is found, what is in place stays.
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Post by Caustic »

shadow dancer wrote:Unless someone can give a factual-based opinion otherwise, I think that the only person that could potentially have a case bought against him/her was the photographer that was trying to sell the photos without the subject's permission, and only then if the photographer actually sold one of those images.


Which is to say, more than likely, nobody's even broken a law, so far as you can tell.

As for the rest of it, they are vagaries, which makes such an overbearing, seemingly kneejerk reaction strike me as so ludicrous, in light of the fact that no law has been evidenced of being broken.


That being said, I will reiterate that I wouldn't want it to require the photographer to give up copyright privileges. If a contract won't fully seal the deal, exactly what part of the law will protect attendees from unwanted pictures?


Which is what the contract will do. Me? While I find the incident theoretically distasteful, I don't find it necessarily illegal and am yet convinced that anyone needs protecting.

Bone wrote:After a quick look at all I can see is Creative Commans is a web site for hosting pre-existing images, with liscenses for fair use. No help there for this issue. Unless you have some genius idea of how to make that work


Well, since my day job just so happens to be geniusry, I think something along these lines is more useful. Specify that it applies to images taken at the event and that event only (yes, you'd need waivers on a monthly basis, but really, you'd have a fun time sorting out date from a photograph anyway), add in a portion in which the person signing the contract agrees to remove an image from public display if a primary object of the photograph, namely somebody occupying a significant portion of the image, requests such action, and poof, you're less restrictive. Nobody sacrifices their copyright but they do give up commercial use. People who you want to hire for specific commercial use, you hire them, and the average man's free to enjoy his or her photos as usual.
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Post by celticsmith »

Mother Mo wrote:Seems like if they are signing the document at the door upon entry, they hopefully would not already be drunk?


Well I would be.....Drunk that is.

Does this make me a naughty person? 8-)


I don't like to take photographs.
I don't like strangers taking my picture without asking.
That is just rude.
I don't mind friends and associates taking my picture.
They usually ask anyway....even if it is nonverbal.

I sometimes enjoy looking at pictures.
Despite my constantly moving around I can't see everything.

I can't imagine anyone paying money for pictures, especially in this digital age. Even with boobies in them.

I don't think my viewpoint is much different from anyone else's.... but how would I know.

Often I have had photographers (professionals, whom I think should know better) just walk up and assume that I am willing to have my picture taken....just because I look splendid. The last time was two Temples ago (I think). I was aware that time and spoiled the shot but turning away to face the other direction. Later the photographer apologized for the presumption and then asked permission which was denied, because of the earlier presumption. If they had asked in the first place I might have been of a different mind.

I had a rather heavy glass mug in my hand.....if I had discovered the photographic attempt after the fact (as in...by the flash) without my permission. The contents....and perhaps the glass....might have gone in search of the offending camera.

This is my opinion (if anyone cares) on photography.


As for the laws..as I know them

.

The images of those photographed technically are somewhat shared by the person ( the original) and the photographer (who owns the right to the derivative of the original in a specific context)

The same goes for images of artwork.

Photo's are by nature a derivative of an original object in a specific context.

The Composition of a photograph (i.e.the placement objects) belongs to the photographer but not the copywrite on the original objects.

So a photographer can not make use of an image with an object that he does not own the rights to or the permission to use.

Not that this stops anyone from doing whatever they like with a photo.

It will get you sued though. Which is why photographers get signed waivers....either before or after the fact.

My Stepmother is a professional photographer for the Knoxville Zoo, among other things, and I took several courses in the process of getting my art degree regarding copywrite. Not only to protect myself from being violated.....but to keep myself from violating and getting sued. Artist survival classes, we called them.

By the way....if I had destroyed the photographer's camera.....I would have been liable for it's replacement, according to law.

.....but it would have been SO satisfying....it would probably have been worth it. :twisted:
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Post by Bone »

Caustic wrote:
shadow dancer wrote:Unless someone can give a factual-based opinion otherwise, I think that the only person that could potentially have a case bought against him/her was the photographer that was trying to sell the photos without the subject's permission, and only then if the photographer actually sold one of those images.


Which is to say, more than likely, nobody's even broken a law, so far as you can tell.

As for the rest of it, they are vagaries, which makes such an overbearing, seemingly kneejerk reaction strike me as so ludicrous, in light of the fact that no law has been evidenced of being broken.


While there may or may not have been a law broken, fact is there has been a problem arise with pictures at Sanctus. Several times over. Do we wait till someone gets hurt or do we take a pre-emptive move to help keep further problems from arising. We believe in addressing this problem before anything worse than what has happened already occurs.

Caustic wrote:That being said, I will reiterate that I wouldn't want it to require the photographer to give up copyright privileges. If a contract won't fully seal the deal, exactly what part of the law will protect attendees from unwanted pictures?


Which is what the contract will do. Me? While I find the incident theoretically distasteful, I don't find it necessarily illegal and am yet convinced that anyone needs protecting.[/quote]

If it happened to You, your outlook might be different. Unwanted photos as I have said before can be dangerous to any individual out there. For a number of reasons. We are attempting to protect them as well as have a way to force someone to remove an offending image from the web.

Caustic wrote:
Bone wrote:After a quick look at all I can see is Creative Commans is a web site for hosting pre-existing images, with liscenses for fair use. No help there for this issue. Unless you have some genius idea of how to make that work


Well, since my day job just so happens to be geniusry, I think something along these lines is more useful. Specify that it applies to images taken at the event and that event only (yes, you'd need waivers on a monthly basis, but really, you'd have a fun time sorting out date from a photograph anyway), add in a portion in which the person signing the contract agrees to remove an image from public display if a primary object of the photograph, namely somebody occupying a significant portion of the image, requests such action, and poof, you're less restrictive. Nobody sacrifices their copyright but they do give up commercial use. People who you want to hire for specific commercial use, you hire them, and the average man's free to enjoy his or her photos as usual.


Better read up on copyright law and further to that end read the last line.

Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.0

You are free:

* to copy, distribute, display, and perform the work
* to make derivative works

Under the following conditions:
by
Attribution. You must give the original author credit.
nc
Noncommercial. You may not use this work for commercial purposes.
sa
Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under a license identical to this one.

* For any reuse or distribution, you must make clear to others the license terms of this work.
* Any of these conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder.

In other words KG would still have to hold copyright to enforce this or any similar contract.
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Post by Caustic »

Bone wrote:Do we wait till someone gets hurt...


Yes.

If it happened to You, your outlook might be different.


I doubt it. At work, I get hazed for DJing because of the Goth stereotype which I don't fall into. Me? I suck it up and move on. If it bothered me that much, I'd stop DJing.

Bone wrote:Better read up on copyright law and further to that end read the last line.

Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.0

You are free:

* to copy, distribute, display, and perform the work
* to make derivative works

Under the following conditions: by Attribution. You must give the original author credit.

nc
Noncommercial. You may not use this work for commercial purposes.

sa
Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under a license identical to this one.

* For any reuse or distribution, you must make clear to others the license terms of this work.

* Any of these conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder.

In other words KG would still have to hold copyright to enforce this or any similar contract.


No; what you're having them sign, since it would be m-o-d-i-f-i-e-d, would strike that line, meaning they'd essentially be signing an agreement to abide by modified copyright rather than give it directly to you.

Do I still think a contract is silly? Yes. Do I think it could be done in a manner superior to the one currently presented? Yes.
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Post by Caustic »

I ran this past somebody else earlier, and they agree that this could be made more clear, so I'll attempt.

What you're having them sign is more of a licensing agreement. They still own the copyright, but they're agreeing to abide by certain restrictions if they want to take pictures at the club night. The two important aspects being no commercial use and removal upon request from somebody who could be considered a significant figure within an image.

As a contract, it's as shakeable as any. People go out drinking before Sanctus, so we know that there are people coming through the doors who could use the "I was drinking!" defense. I laugh, but go for it if you're this worried about pictures leaking onto the internet (and it seems you are).
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Post by pryjmaty »

i will say, here and now, ANY pictures that i take at any event is for my personal enjoyment ONLY!!!! i have no problem with the contract since no pix that i take will be publically posted. There have been times that i desired to post something publically, but i try to always ask the permission of any that might be in the pic. Again, any pix i take are for my personal enjoyment & memories ONLY!!!
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Post by JaNell »

celticsmith wrote:Not only to protect myself from being violated.....but to keep myself from violating and getting sued.


Since when do you object to either violating or getting violated?
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Post by The Stormstress »

celticsmith wrote:
Mother Mo wrote:Seems like if they are signing the document at the door upon entry, they hopefully would not already be drunk?


Well I would be.....Drunk that is.

Does this make me a naughty person? 8-)


Naughty iz not necessarily a bad thing! ;) :twisted:

celticsmith wrote:
Often I have had photographers (professionals, whom I think should know better) just walk up and assume that I am willing to have my picture taken....just because I look splendid.


U alwayz look splendid, m'dear!
If u r such a vamp, then bite me, bitch! :twisted:
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Post by mafiaman »

Caustic wrote:What you're having them sign is more of a licensing agreement. They still own the copyright, but they're agreeing to abide by certain restrictions if they want to take pictures at the club night. The two important aspects being no commercial use and removal upon request from somebody who could be considered a significant figure within an image.



However, this can be taken too far quite easily.

Lets say, for sake of arguement, that someone brings a notepad with them and draws a sketch or writes a bit of prose inspired by events that happen at the club. The piece of artwork (written or drawn) is then considered a derivative work based upon the copywritten original work of Sanctus. With the copyright policy in place regarding photographs, this fictional situation could easily be extrapolated from that in a courtroom.

Does Sanctus have a copyright? Has KnoxGothic copyrighted Sanctus? Are blog entries and posts on this forum considered derivative works as well if this copyright policy is enacted?

Interestingly, this situation compares nicely to George Lucas and his treatment of the Star Wars liscences. Of course, KG has to be George Lucas and Sanctus has to be the intellectual property known as Star Wars in this case.

It may be easier to just declare a "No Cameras" policy at Sanctus. You'll just have to declare a no recording device policy as well.
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Post by Scorptrio »

"He will survive who knows when to post and when not to post." - Sun Tzu (almost but not really)

Let me ask this up front: Did Ms. Kitty get prints of the photos taken of her Halloween night for her portfolio?

One of my favorite things in the week following any Sanctus is setting a web spider to crawl thru any and all pages where people have posted pictures. The spider downloads a copy of every picture on the site to my PC with a single click. I hope each time that I have been caught in some of the images, so I can share them with friends, family and new internet contacts. It's a great thing when pictures are taken at Sanctus and posted free of charge for all to share when A) permission was obtained before the picture was taken and/or B) the picture is removed from the internet as soon as anyone appearing in a photo requests that it be removed. If everyone followed this general policy, we wouldn't need an official policy.

I recall earlier this year when an "upskirt" photo was posted and then removed when the subject asked that it be taken down. That photo had already been downloaded, so a copy was on my computer. The ethical thing to do was: delete it. The difference this past Halloween is at once simple and important: images were posted "for sale" with a watermark, copyright notice and a copy-protection scheme, all with no permission being obtained or even sought by the photographer. If he had requested that I sign a release, I would have signed it! It was only the presumption which was offensive. This was exacerbated when I right-clicked on an image of myself and was prevented from simply saving it. (see the IE message in the pic, below.)

Image

As with most copy-protection schemes, it was easily thwarted. (In the end, knowledge is the only power because of the mental nature of everything perceived.)

Image

Yes, I'm purposely saying "in your face" to Mr. Chambers on these two images because one is of me and as for the other, I had a hand in the costume design, being the creator of the headdress.

I emailed the photographer and after a reasonable time, he did remove my image from his site. Easier to apologize than to ask permission, I suppose, though no apology or reply of any other kind ever arrived. The matter was closed to my satisfaction. Personally, I'd love to see everyone bring a camera to Sanctus, ask permission before each picture taken, post them up copyright free for all to share and remove immediately any which the subject(s) object(s) to. I would also fully support the sale of prints to benefit charity or make possible some special event or even for a private profit, provided that written permission was obtained in advance from every person imaged. Also, the KnoxGothic photo calendar is a great idea and should happen, with the money going to the models, photographers, makeup artists and some to charity as well.

The issue of cameras at Sanctus has been simmering for a long time and the latest incident brought it to a boil. I never wanted this to be a crusade to end cameras at Sanctus. In retrospect, I should have quietly sent a request to Mr. Chambers to remove the picture and only posted on KG if he failed to do so. No one else's pictures have been removed from his site, so I assume that no one else from KG cares if he is charging $3 for a .JPG (not a print) which will still have the photographer's copyright in the corner. It's a funny world where you can buy something which was yours to begin with and still not own it. Ironically, my makeup that night represented crying tears of blood for the state of humanity, at odds with itself. Maybe the aborigines were right when they objected to their photos being taken because it would "steal their souls." The issue certainly seems to have robbed a lot of people of time and energy and detracted from what we are all at Sanctus to do in the first place: dance, drink, socialize, relax and enjoy the culture. If I never have to talk to or about a photographer at Sanctus except to say "Sure! Take my picture all you want as long as you never charge for it without getting a signed release" I'll be a happier man.

<Libertarian Soapbox> When people fail to take responsibility for their own actions and the actions of their peers as well, authoritarian systems arise to, essentially, protect the people from themselves. This control always incites some percentage of the population to rebel against the rules as being too harsh. A cycle begins which perpetuates discontentment, prompting the governing body to take even more control and responsibility from the governed. If you were all the anarchists you claim to be, every single last one would take a disposable camera to Sanctus, fully committed to asking permission before every shot and sharing all images freely, subject to veto from the imaged. It wouldn't be long before the people at the door, who are responding to a need to the best of their ability, decided that it wasn't worth the time, long slow lines and the sheer number of printed release forms which would soon run out. This only works when everyone participates, all of which would be about the same amount of effort as if everyone had participated in taking responsibility for their own actions and the actions of their peers in the first place. </Libertarian Soapbox>

* opinions in the Libertarian Soapbox were channeled from government assassinated revolutionaries and may or may not reflect the opinions of the channeller
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Post by celticsmith »

JaNell wrote:
celticsmith wrote:Not only to protect myself from being violated.....but to keep myself from violating and getting sued.


Since when do you object to either violating or getting violated?
:twisted:


:lol: :P

I draw the line at anal probing, I prefer neither to give nor receive.

I may be an ass...but I still hold some body cavities to be sacrosanct......though I suppose that makes me a bit of a prude.


....And with that we go off topic yet again and back into the realm of sexual innuendo......our own personal safe place in happyville.




.
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Ok I will reply now...

Post by cariephoto »

Just to let you know, as far as downloading images from the web for "FREE" or "Copyright free", is actually INCORRECT!! As of 1978, a photographer DOES NOT have to add the little "C" on anything. It is automatically copyrighted. That goes for anything anyone creates. Below is the law I found online at a great photographers resource website:National Press Photographers Association, in which I am a member.
Legal precedent (Feist Publications, Inc. v. Rural Telephone Service Company, Inc., 111 S.Ct. 1282, 1287-88 (1991)) gives photographers (and others) the following rights:


the right to reproduce work in copies (reproductive right);

the right to produce derivative works based on the copyrighted works (adaptive right);

the right to distribute copies of the work (distribute right);

the right to display the copyrighted work publicly (display right);

the right to claim authorship of the work and to prevent the use of his or her name as the author of the work she or she did not create (attribution right); and

the right to prevent the use of his or her name as the author of a distortion of the work and to prevent destruction of the work (integrity right).


Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright.


MY PERSONAL TAKE ON ALL OF IT:
I feel that the "contract" is mostly understandable, however, there is NO WAY I WILL EVER give MY rights to MY photos (my own creative process) AWAY TO ANYONE...PERIOD!!!!
I am offended by this and have lost the desire to even take pictures there anymore, after I read the release form.

****Note: If the people going to Sanctus would like for ME to be the designated photographer of the event, then talk to the promoters. Because honestly, I own my own photos, and would ALWAYS ASK SOMEONE< AND GET THEM TO SIGN MY OWN MODEL RELEASE BEFORE I WOULD EVER SELL FOR PROFIT. ****
I understand that there needs to be some sort of paperwork, etc. but I am not really sure if this release form is even legal. I am going to talk to an attorney, for I have learned a great deal with this situation. I LOVE ALL OF YOU, and hope that this issue can be resolved soon.
*** HOW ABOUT PAYING ME TO BE YOUR PHOTOGRAPHER?? Then I will gladly give the promoters the pics I take, under one condition: I AM THE SOLE OWNER. And will have the sole right to sell any of them, if I have a signed release form from the person I took the photograph of. I will only get them to sign a release if I intend to sell them. That will mean that I will be needing to get your name and contact info. I have been circulating my business card, so that if any of you would like to have a private photography photoshoot, you can contact me.
I can tell you this...my creative juices pretty much stop flowin when I read that release form, no offense to the creator... I KNOW YOUR INTENTIONS WERE HONORABLE!
Take care,
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Post by cariephoto »

gwenhwyfar wrote:the other i am still irritated with, because she took pics of me without asking, despite my screaming across the crowd. posted them on her photopages, and they are still up to this day. never asked if it was ok with me, ever!
my pics being posted online does not bother me when they were taken by friends and i know about it. but i don't know her, she didn't ask, she ignored my yelling at her and simply walked away, posted them online-though they aren't for sale to my knowledge. i even look livid mad in one of them, that should have been a hint.

all in all, i consider her to be rude and very unprofessionall and if i ever catch her taking pics of me again without asking, we may fight. i don't care how many of my friends she's done shoots with, she NEVER asked me, prolly doesn't even know my name and posted them.
so perhaps the contract is neccesary.

sighs :shrug:


I am responding to this post because if it is I to who you are referring to, them I think I should respond. If I took a photo of you and you were yelling across a crowded room at me to not take your photograph, then I apologize, because I did not hear you. If it is I to whom you are referring to, then why not approach me and tell me in person. I CANNOT hear jack shite in those clubs. It is very loud, so before you get upset, why don't you talk to the photographer and ask her to REMOVE your photo. If it is me, then send me a copy of the pic, so I will know which one you want removed. I do photography for the sole purpose of growing as a photographer. THAT IS IT! It would be nice to earn a living with this creative passion of mine, but I will not sell anything for profit, without a release signed. This excludes charitable work..If you feel uncomfortable about me posting your photograph online, then TELL ME!!! I cannot always hear a person yelling across the room. I am utterly and totally focus on my creative process...totally focus on the image I am creating through my lens. It is NOT about the person I am taking a picture of, it is about the creative process for MYSELF. It is like this for ALL photographers that do it for ART's sake! IF I TAKE A PHOTO OF YOU< THEN TAKE IT AS A COMPLIMENT!! I ONLY SHOOT PEOPLE I FIND VISUALLY INTERESTING AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME.
***Note: if I am not the photographer you are refering to, then whynot walk up to her the next time you see her, and tell her you do not want your photo taken. If you are too shy to tell her, then do not be in her camera lens's field of view.

*** and further note: I am going to delete any photos I may have of you online, obviously you feel uncomfortable about it, so I am taking a professional proactive approach to this situation**

* If there is anyone here on this member board that wishes I remove their photograph from my fotopages site, then feel free to email me:
mailto:?subject=&body=, and be sure to send me some sort of pic, so I will know who you are, and try to find you on my site, then I will remove you.
I am thinking about removing all of the pics, because it has become disheartening to have this whole situation happen... I am just an artist, can't I just do what I love?
Ciao all.
-Carie
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celticsmith
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Post by celticsmith »

Huzzah...finally an INFORMED opinion and position.

Thank you Carrie.....I was trying to go there but I lacked the actual factual information to back my opinions up.

My opinion of you is revised and I feel more comfortable with you...feel free to take my picture anytime.

Also...the idea of press passes is not bad.....not for the whole copywrite issue mind you....I agree with the opinion on that. The main recognised standard is "If you create something.... ANYTHING... you own the copywrite on it.....period. (though proving that ownership is sometimes problematic).

I think the REAL issue is accountablility......If an unwelcome image is posted or presented...it would be nice to have a paper trail so that the offended party can track the photographer down.
Let anyone take their picture and do whatever....but let us have the means to track them down. Not only to exert control (by the subject of the photo) in case the image is objectionable....but also to allow the subject to contact the photograper in case they want a copy (Digital download or otherwise) or just to look at them.

A section could be put on the front page of this site ( in the links section perhaps) where the press pass holders, with a picture of the photographer, and a link to their photopage (or whatever) sites where the pictures can be found, and their contact information could be listed......this way the KGB will not have to manage the bandwith and storage problems of trying to display all the photos (like they do now) just the record of who takes the picture and where they can be found.
The people looking for photos taken of them will just have to look for the picture of the person who took it...so no name memorization is required.
The people handling security at events (all of them...not just Sanctus) will have a means of verification of authorized photographers as well as a means of identifying those who are not. ....and if someone has a problem with an image it can be handled directly.

This way.... accountablility, accessability, copywrite, AND most importantly...Freedom of expression are all preserved without all this other hullabaloo and legal ambiguity....

That is my idea anyway...or rather my inspired expansion upon Carrie's initial proposal....Do what you will...Its yo thang.



.
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A: The Jolly Raja
tat2jay
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Post by tat2jay »

remember when taking pictures at the club was fun?

i hope that camera website guy gets some bad karma out of this
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