Cheerleader of the Damned wrote:It's only a resolution people. It means virtually nothing. They passed a resolution to honor the owner of the Burgin dealerships. That's how little this all means.

I was listening to Hallerin Hilton Hill yesterday and even most of the Christians don't care one way or the other if it's passed because it's pretty much useless. "It's a legislative tipping of the hat" according to Hal. You can get your panties in a twist if you like, but it won't effect your lives in any way no matter which way the vote goes.

Furthermore, as I understand it, Knox County already plans to vote it down because several large groups are worried that it will offend people of other religions.

Also, I believe it's up for vote in EVERY county in Tennessee. And if you want to learn more about it, the man heading it is supposed to be on the O'Reilly Factor Thursday evening.

The question is not how useful/useless the resolutuion would be. If this little issue will have no effect on the lives of local citizens, why has it caught the attention of these "large groups " that are opposing it?

This proposed resolution may mean that city commissioners are violating the oath of their office: http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/ ... 40,00.html

Somehow I find this incredibly important. And apparently so does the Knoxville community, who are beginning to flood these commissioners with emails.

Cheerleader of the Damned wrote:It's only a resolution people. It means virtually nothing. They passed a resolution to honor the owner of the Burgin dealerships. That's how little this all means...
... You can get your panties in a twist if you like, but it won't effect your lives in any way no matter which way the vote goes.

WRONG! There iz no such thing az "just" passing a resolution, law, or otherwize. It iz a matter of setting precedent 4 future resolutionz, lawz,... That iz how the American system of government works. ---Give 'em an inch, & they'll take a mile!!--- If we do not stand up 4 our rightz & freedomz now, who'z to say what will b taken next... aside from the fact that this resolution directly violatez our Constitutional rightz, already. Surely, every1 here can agree that since 9/11, our privacy & rightz hav been dwindled & taken... Do u really think that it will stop there? R u really that naive?

Write your county commissioners if you'd like. I just think it's pretty comical that everyone is so up in arms over this when the only thing a resolution like this will get anyone is a "Celebrate God Month" that no one will ever hear about except for the organization that created it (i.e. Adoption Awareness Month at DCS).

If you're worried about setting a precedence about such things, why don't you email the county commissioners about how much you hate it that nearly every court in the country opens their day with a prayer? I know Jeff Co. does and I'd bet Knox Co. does too. If it were me fighting this fight, I'd rather put my energy into something more useful than a resolution, but hey....whatever floats your boat.

I would guess the reason the group(s) are actually fighting this is because they, like this thread, are blowing it out of proportion. I heard that snipet on the news, yet I see no massive Christian movement to contradict it. If it were truly and deeply important, don't you think that we would have heard about some group mounting a massive letter write campaign of their own? Instead, the majority of the calls the commission has been receiving have been votes to oppose it. Why? Because it's pretty much a pointless endeavor (see quote below).

"Knox County Law Director Mike Moyers told commissioners on Monday that in his opinion the resolution is constitutional. "It is nonbinding, involves no money and no posting" of any religious materials on governmental property, he said."

And um....no, I'm not really that naive, but thanks for the petty insult.

For those of you who are interested:
THE KNOX COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS SHALL MEET IN
REGULAR SESSION ON MONDAY, NOVEMBER 17, 2003 AT 2:00 P.M. IN THE MAIN ASSEMBLY ROOM OF THE CITY COUNTY BUILDING, WEST MAIN STREET.

Dominion will be there, and I am trying to rearrange my schedule now. And some folks from East Tennessee Rationalists will be there as well. Unfortunately, this is not an evening meeting, so the timing is difficult.

I find it interesting that there is any speculation as to the importance of this decision. A resolution, if passed, will set a precedent that many affect future resolutions. If this decision is so silly, why is it gaining national attention? Or prime time national television coverage? I’m sorry that anyone, whether Christian or not, cannot see the importance and gravity of a resolution that ultimately promotes religious intolerance. Principles are STILL important to U.S. citizens. If these groups and individuals were NOT up in arms, I would be alarmed.

Essentially, the resolution is based on a false premise, and is unconstitutional in nature. Personally, as a Knoxville resident, I am uncomfortable with the prospect of my city defining itself under unfounded religious claims. Here is the resolution :

"That the Knox County Commission hereby urges all American citizens, to proclaim to every level of government (local, state and federal) its responsibility to publicly recognize God as the foundation of our national heritage, lest our nation forget and our children never know!"

The heritage of our nation WAS NOT founded on God. If you don’t believe me, let’s here from our “founding fathers” :

Benjamin Franklin "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

Thomas Paine "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church". (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine. New York: Everbody's Vacation Publishing Co., 1945, p. 362)

“Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.”-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

“Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.”Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievements" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From: The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785


Just a little food for thought.

Why did it recieve national interest? Because it's a hot button issue that could cost our state quite a bit in lawsuits.

Cheerleader of the Damned wrote:Write your county commissioners if you'd like.

I hav, thanx.

Cheerleader of the Damned wrote: I just think it's pretty comical that everyone is so up in arms over this when the only thing a resolution like this will get anyone is a "Celebrate God Month" that no one will ever hear about except for the organization that created it (i.e. Adoption Awareness Month at DCS).

I just think it'z pretty comical that n e 1 w/could believe that.

Cheerleader of the Damned wrote:If you're worried about setting a precedence about such things, why don't you email the county commissioners about how much you hate it that nearly every court in the country opens their day with a prayer?

That'z not within their jurisdiction.

Cheerleader of the Damned wrote:I would guess the reason the group(s) are actually fighting this is because they, like this thread, are blowing it out of proportion... If it were truly and deeply important, don't you think that we would have heard about some group mounting a massive letter write campaign of their own?

The East TN Rationalistz & the ACLU r already involved.

Cheerleader of the Damned wrote:And um....no, I'm not really that naive, but thanks for the petty insult.

It waz a relatively straight-forward question. Perhapz, u r just

Cheerleader of the Damned wrote:...blowing it out of porportion...

Cheerleader of the Damned wrote:Why did it recieve national interest? Because it's a hot button issue that could cost our state quite a bit in lawsuits.

I agree. And the lawsuits would be justified. I am not interested in seeing that much money wasted on some ridiculous scheme cooked up by the mayor of Greene County who "has a wild hair up his ass."

The Stormstress wrote:It waz a relatively straight-forward question. Perhapz, u r just

Cheerleader of the Damned wrote:...blowing it out of porportion...

LOL. Stormy...

Sha-zam!

Sorry, Cheerleader, but when it comes to religion, you're gonna find some very strong opinions, no matter where you go. You have the right to not feel strongly about it, because of the actions taken by our founding fathers to insure that we are a free country where church & state are separated.

Feel free to voice your opinion, but allow us to do the same. I agree with Vader, Ophelia, & the rest. This is something worthy of public debate. With the Alabama Judge & his 10 Commandments drama recently, this is a "hot topic", and rightly so. We cannot let apathy rob us of our rights, nor can we be lax in our responsibilties of protecting these rights so that future generations will be able to inherit them as we have.

I'd love to come to the meeting Moday, but my job is especially demanding on Mondays, so I can't possibly get away mid-day like that. I would like to encourage as many people as possible who can attend, to do so. Exercise your liberties or loose them!

Thank u vicious_blood & Mother Mo... I honestly had no ntention of offending ... just awakening ... Not 2 worry, tho, b'cauz I'm currently 2 drunk 2 care if I did offend... BTW, thanx, Russ! ... ...When it cumz 2 religion &/or politicz, my opinionz r quite passionate, & I make NO apologiez 4 that!

& Bite me!

First of all, no one has even asked my opinion on it, so you shouldn't assume whether I'm for it, against it, apathetic, or ambivalent. I never said that any of you could not voice your opinion.

I simply said that a resolution is not something that is going to be a life-changing event for anyone. I think that having the Supreme Court make the Chief Justice take down the 10 commandments and taking his position away is pretty much protecting your rights and is a pretty good indication that this resolution will not "get out of hand." Although, I do think this it is going to make for some great social upheaval.

Stormstress, you are taking an adult debate and trying to make it into a juvenile argument. I'm not going for it.

i am a little confused, there are so many words swirling in my head right now. is there, like a petition or something, are people writing angry letters to the state? i mean, is there REALLY anything we can do to prevent this? and would it really affect anyone is it is passed? believe me, i don't agree with it, but it is only a resolution. forgive me, i'm pretty tired and just kinda skimed thru the articles to get the basic point, and am unsure what WE can really do about it.

I'm sending this info to http://www.au.org a group that fights in congress the seperation of church and state.

They might be crazy but they can get things done. Might help if others write to them as well. Here is an article from their site on something similiar.

Virginia County May Not Discriminate Against Minority Religions, Court Holds go to the site for the rest of it.

Actually, for those of us who oppose the resolution, things are looking up. Community response has been overwhelming. For some interesting reading, check the Letters to the Editor for Thursday, Friday and Saturday on http://www.knoxnews.com.
There have been some intelligent letters written in opposition to the God resolution, by groups such as the ACLU, students from UT Law School, and a local pastor.
Here are some links:

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/letters_to_ ... 55,00.html

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/letters_to_ ... 82,00.html

Cheerleader of the Damned wrote: Stormstress, you are taking an adult debate and trying to make it into a juvenile argument. I'm not going for it.

OK pot... sure, the kettle'z black!

Things like this are demeaning to ALL religions, and all devoutly religious or spiritual people. Legislation renders faith meaningless.

JaNell wrote:Things like this are demeaning to ALL religions, and all devoutly religious or spiritual people. Legislation renders faith meaningless.

Well said.

Well, Chris and I just returned from the city county building and thankfully
The God Resolution was withdrawn!

The vote was 10 to 9, and the withdrawl was proposed by Commissioner Diane Jordan, a professed Christian and the only member to originally vote against the resolution.

Cheers and congratulations were heard all around, and there was a standing ovation. We talked to some individuals afterwards that were actually disappointed that the resloution was withdrawn so quickly. Many people were prepared to speak out in opposition, including Christian community leaders, as well as members of the NCCJ, the East Tn Rationalists, and the Unitarian Universalist Church.

Anyway, Chris and I are thrilled. Portions of the proceedings will be on Channels 8 and 10 tonight, along with interviews from local citizens.

ophelia wrote:Well, Chris and I just returned from the city county building and thankfully
The God Resolution was withdrawn!

The vote was 10 to 9, and the withdrawl was proposed by Commissioner Diane Jordan, a professed Christian and the only member to originally vote against the resolution.

Cheers and congratulations were heard all around, and there was a standing ovation. We talked to some individuals afterwards that were actually disappointed that the resloution was withdrawn so quickly. Many people were prepared to speak out in opposition, including Christian community leaders, as well as members of the NCCJ, the East Tn Rationalists, and the Unitarian Universalist Church.

Anyway, Chris and I are thrilled. Portions of the proceedings will be on Channels 8 and 10 tonight, along with interviews from local citizens.

hell yea
thx for the update.

With the resolution withdrawn, I'm making this thread non-sticky.