Just to jump in...

What is the evidence that we would consume less if we were happy and free from fear? Shaolin monks maybe but when I think of fear, paranoia, and unhapiness I think of areas like the Great Depression or Dickinson England.

And as a sidenote how do you define hapiness? I've always defined happiness by how something makes me feel. In others it's how they display themselves. From my own expereince I've seen the same levels in hapiness in someone enjoying a well told stupid joke as someone buying a video game or doing a useful service.

Celestial Dung wrote:What is the evidence that we would consume less if we were happy and free from fear?

I was wondering the same thing...

its shit like this that makes me think cutting the cords in my balls to ensure not breeding is a good thing because as much as i love my country, i fear the fuckers that run it.
for shit
like this

ohh we need another success statistic. dont have a high dollar bust recent? fake one.
fudge those figures
give our marketing departments credibilty.
blah.
this isnt surprising though.
damn.

Celestial Dung wrote:Just to jump in...

What is the evidence that we would consume less if we were happy and free from fear?

It's all around you.

The boyfriend who buys his girlfriend/wife an expensive ring because he cheated on her.

The guy who has a shitty job in a cubicle and chain-smokes clove cigarettes and drinks beer to feel better when he gets home.

The ravers who see no real spirituality or point to existance so they find refuge in chemical significance, which always wears off, requiring you to buy it again if you want to feel that way again.

Anyone who consumes anything in lieu of finding comfort in human relations. Haven't you ever heard of "comfort food"? There are also comfort SUVs. Comfort cable internet. Comfort drugs. Comfort porn. Comfort music.

This is my "I'm genuinely surprised I had to actually explain this" face.

Jack wrote:

Celestial Dung wrote:Just to jump in...

What is the evidence that we would consume less if we were happy and free from fear?

It's all around you.

The boyfriend who buys his girlfriend/wife an expensive ring because he cheated on her.

The guy who has a shitty job in a cubicle and chain-smokes clove cigarettes and drinks beer to feel better when he gets home.

The ravers who see no real spirituality or point to existance so they find refuge in chemical significance, which always wears off, requiring you to buy it again if you want to feel that way again.

Anyone who consumes anything in lieu of finding comfort in human relations. Haven't you ever heard of "comfort food"? There are also comfort SUVs. Comfort cable internet. Comfort drugs. Comfort porn. Comfort music.

This is my "I'm genuinely surprised I had to actually explain this" face.

"hides the Tapioca pudding from Jack, while whispering" Conspiracy Theories are from the devil.

I cannot believe none of you have friends or acquaintances who are happy and because of it don't buy as much useless crap as people who are unhappy.

Actually, no, I can believe it.

Jack wrote:I cannot believe none of you have friends or acquaintances who are happy and because of it don't buy as much useless crap as people who are unhappy.

Actually, no, I can believe it.

Money can't buy happiness. It can pay my cover, give me coffin nails, get me buzzed, cover my bills, and fill my stomach. None of these things really make me happy. Good conversations, good music, drums and fire, the love of Frost, and my concept of diety are free and that is what makes me happy. The other things just help me survive without hurting someone. They are nothing more than security blankets. Yet i still don't see how any of this relates to civil liberties being violated by conservative assholes in camo riot gear.

I am just going to go out and say, buying useless shit does, infact make me happy, I am a matrialist and I have no qualms about it. Having nice stuff makes me feel content. and if i was a happy person, which i generally am, I would still buy the shit I buy.

having nice things is fine

it's when you get enveloped in this idea that
that's the only thing that matters

is when things start to get muddy


when you become this consumer drone designed to dance like a monkey when the tv tells you to

that's when you need to take a step back and start really considering what's what

rec|use wrote:when you become this consumer drone designed to dance like a monkey when the tv tells you to

Which is what most people are, and they are that because they've been convinced that nice things are more important than good friends or inner peace.

Jack, the problem with your examplesares that in each case there is a trouble deeper then just consumerism replacing something significant. The boyfriend doesn't have a problem with buying things for his girlfriend, he has a problem cheating on his girlfriend. The office worker's real root problem isn't buying alchoul and ciggies it's the fact that he won't go out and do something he likes. The dancing boys and girls situation is iffy to me. Frankly if they don't go out and kill themselves or others then by golly let them consume drugs and dance. It may be possible that to them that is spirituality. Hell how many cultures do dance and do drugs to get some sort holy moly high?

That last bit is the other question about your examples. What if they are actually happy? I'm not saying their totally healthy but what if buying the ciggies and the alchies and the ringies and drugies makes them happy?

Sure know people who are content and are happy because of it. My Papaw was very happy and content for one. I also know people who buy things and it makes them legit happy. Seriously they go out and buy a ice cream cone and there's this big huge smile on their face and a hop to their stop. More commennly I know people who are a mix of content and what. Their content with one portion of their goods and want more of another portion. And their happy.

Joy differers for each person but it's based around the principle of "Doing what you want to do." Not that everyone always does what they want to do or should for that matter but not everyone is happy all the time. If it's overall joy or purpose your are reaching for...then that's different for everyone too. There is more then one road.

Consumerism be it hardware, software, carware, musicware, drugware, foodware, movieware whateverware, is just a tool. Just a device in getting what you want. While there are evil people, there are no evil tools.

Celestial Dung wrote: While there are evil people, there are no evil tools.

I couldn't have said it better my self.

I'll grant you that buying things makes some people believe themselves to be happy.

I'll still argue that that has the very bad side-effect of those people allowing themselves to be controlled.

The ring, the drug, the ice cream cone, the alcohol, sure, they're inert. But the people profiting from them are real, and are serious about running our lives.

It's the difference between buying your cup of coffee at 11th Street or buying it at Starbuck's.

I don't think the majority corportions want to run peoples lives, they just want to make money. The moral strength and weakness of capitailsm lies is in this fact. While they do tend to influence buying habits via marketing I doubt if they care about the rest of our lives.

As far as believing your happy that part is a bit tricky. You've got people who swear that club hoppers aren't really happy they just think they are. Or the notion that rich people aren't happy they just think they are. After meeting different types of people with different types of personality quirks I've come to the conclusion that if someone believes they are happy they normally are. Happiness is a feeling after all.

Shopping can become a addiction granted. But I don't see the evidence that it's reached epedimic proportions. Not like spelling of course.

Celestial Dung wrote:I don't think the majority corportions want to run peoples lives, they just want to make money. The moral strength and weakness of capitailsm lies is in this fact. While they do tend to influence buying habits via marketing I doubt if they care about the rest of our lives.

I find it curiously naive that you don't realize our consumptive habits define a great deal of "the rest of our lives".

These days, people learn their behaviors from TV shows. You don't think that deciding what to put on TV and have people watch affects their personality?

As always, I envy your naivete, CD.

Jack wrote:

Celestial Dung wrote:I don't think the majority corportions want to run peoples lives, they just want to make money. The moral strength and weakness of capitailsm lies is in this fact. While they do tend to influence buying habits via marketing I doubt if they care about the rest of our lives.

I find it curiously naive that you don't realize our consumptive habits define a great deal of "the rest of our lives".

These days, people learn their behaviors from TV shows. You don't think that deciding what to put on TV and have people watch affects their personality?

As always, I envy your naivete, CD.

I think you are missing the point, but lets say that you are right about a fraction of the population, ( because I refuse to believe that everyoneis that stupid). What does that have to do with civil liberties being blatantly trampled on? Sure, walmart is evil because they have everything you don't need and make you want it. Sure, Starbucks is evil because they took the coffee house idea and sucked all the coolness out of it. Sure, people will have hang ups and vices and use these things to distract themselves from real issues. But the people that are victims in this case weren't shopping in walmart or the mall and weren't chugging crap'e latt'es from starbucks. They were instead listening to music and dancing on privite property. I don't see how the two things are connected.

Mercurygriffin wrote:Sure, people will have hang ups and vices and use these things to distract themselves from real issues.

They were instead listening to music and dancing on privite property. I don't see how the two things are connected.

You answered your own question.

Jack wrote:

Mercurygriffin wrote:Sure, people will have hang ups and vices and use these things to distract themselves from real issues.

They were instead listening to music and dancing on privite property. I don't see how the two things are connected.

You answered your own question.

And you have a tendancy to quote out of context. I guess I should have been more clear.

How is your hypothosis about civilians buying emotional comfort related to big brother storming private property and assualting civilians?

Mercurygriffin wrote:How is your hypothosis about civilians buying emotional comfort related to big brother storming private property and assualting civilians?

Because, as I think I said already in this thread, in times of fear and dread people tend to buy more. Part of that is because times of fear and dread make people think they might as well spend their money now instead of planning for a future that might not come.

Jack wrote:

Mercurygriffin wrote:How is your hypothosis about civilians buying emotional comfort related to big brother storming private property and assualting civilians?

Because, as I think I said already in this thread, in times of fear and dread people tend to buy more. Part of that is because times of fear and dread make people think they might as well spend their money now instead of planning for a future that might not come.

So you can rationalize not really caring about this because they want to have fun, (because they are afraid according to your pattern) which they had to pay for. If you happen to be in a club in the coming years that gets raided by the national gaurd or any other armed force and you get tackled to the ground, beaten and choked with tear gas, just remember that you almost deserve it because you (presumably afraid) payed for it.