Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:53 pm
Pfft. Everyone know Alanis Morrisette is God.
...what Oni said.
Very well stated.
https://www.knoxgothic.com:443/forum/
higher powers ie. God
Page 2 of 3
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:46 pm
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:24 pm
Oni & Bone both nailed it... very well, I might add.
I'll throw in the human tendency to see patterns in all kinds of things, whether they are actually there or not, & our own ego centric attitude towards everything we encounter in our lives. Together we feel like everything revolves around us & our actions in some way & random or chance occuances are given too much credit.
There is a direct correlation between superstition & control as well... the less control an indiviual feels they have, the more superstitious they are. Its even been replicated in the lab with pigeons. (One of my favorite experiments!) They put pigeons in a box with an automatic food dispensing unit & then manipulated the manner in which the food was distributed. For some, the pigeons were rewarded with food when they pecked at a metal disk in the box, for others the food was distributed at random intervals. The results for the 2 groups of pigeons were that the ones rewarded with food for pecking had been successfully behaviorally conditioned to peck whenever they wanted food. For the others, the random distribution of the food had confused them & whatever behavior they were engaged in at the time of feeding became what they repeatedly practiced until more food was given. The researchers called it "dancing" for food because of the strange postures & movements the pigeons would engage in. Each bird had its own dance, which it seemed to think was the key for getting more food, despite the randomness.
Long story short, we're pigeons... dancing for our next snack.
I also think that belief in a higher power might also indicate a fear of taking or accepting responsibilty for one's own existence. So many religious folks I know attribute all the success in their lives as being the will of a divine power & all their challenges as tests given by some divine task master. I'm more inclined to think of my ups and downs as a combination of chance & my own efforts. I don't need to feel to loved or disciplined by a divine parent. I give those things to myself as needed.
I'll throw in the human tendency to see patterns in all kinds of things, whether they are actually there or not, & our own ego centric attitude towards everything we encounter in our lives. Together we feel like everything revolves around us & our actions in some way & random or chance occuances are given too much credit.
There is a direct correlation between superstition & control as well... the less control an indiviual feels they have, the more superstitious they are. Its even been replicated in the lab with pigeons. (One of my favorite experiments!) They put pigeons in a box with an automatic food dispensing unit & then manipulated the manner in which the food was distributed. For some, the pigeons were rewarded with food when they pecked at a metal disk in the box, for others the food was distributed at random intervals. The results for the 2 groups of pigeons were that the ones rewarded with food for pecking had been successfully behaviorally conditioned to peck whenever they wanted food. For the others, the random distribution of the food had confused them & whatever behavior they were engaged in at the time of feeding became what they repeatedly practiced until more food was given. The researchers called it "dancing" for food because of the strange postures & movements the pigeons would engage in. Each bird had its own dance, which it seemed to think was the key for getting more food, despite the randomness.
Long story short, we're pigeons... dancing for our next snack.
I also think that belief in a higher power might also indicate a fear of taking or accepting responsibilty for one's own existence. So many religious folks I know attribute all the success in their lives as being the will of a divine power & all their challenges as tests given by some divine task master. I'm more inclined to think of my ups and downs as a combination of chance & my own efforts. I don't need to feel to loved or disciplined by a divine parent. I give those things to myself as needed.
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:24 am
B_Ko wrote:Pfft. Everyone know Alanis Morrisette is God.
Just not in that fucking "Thank You" video...It was liek her only mistake...outside of chemicals that can wipe out the planet, and ol' G. W.
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:51 pm
I will have to say I have a lot to think about. I do wanna say thanx to everyone....im still open to other peoples ideas....that means i want to hear them. And thanx to everyone for not ripping me a new a$$ about bringing this subject to the table.
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:45 pm
Ok, a bit about me ...
I grew up in the southern baptist faith, but even at age 6 I saw inconsistencies ... why does god smite the innocent in the old testament? why is it that many in the world who never get to hear of christ, but are otherwise decent people, burn forever in hell? why doesn't God do something about it?
I think it was this, plus the attitude of so many fundie Christians in this country, that turned me away from religion. But as I grew up, I began to explore earth-based paths ... I think it can be accurately said that I now believe that there is something greater than what I am. For me, it's not about ego, but feeling like an insignificant speck in the grand cosmos, and standing in awe of it all.
My reverence, is a reverence for life, for humanity, and for the Earth itself. I try to live with respect for all three, although sometimes it is very difficult. But one is expected to at least try.
As for what happens after we die? I don't know. But I don't live my life as though I am trying to win favor with God and earn a place in Paradise. That's a selfish motivator. Just as being nice to avoid Hell is merely being motivated out of fear. Humanity is better than that, we don't need the promise of Heaven or the fear of Hell to motivate us to be better than what we are.
I grew up in the southern baptist faith, but even at age 6 I saw inconsistencies ... why does god smite the innocent in the old testament? why is it that many in the world who never get to hear of christ, but are otherwise decent people, burn forever in hell? why doesn't God do something about it?
I think it was this, plus the attitude of so many fundie Christians in this country, that turned me away from religion. But as I grew up, I began to explore earth-based paths ... I think it can be accurately said that I now believe that there is something greater than what I am. For me, it's not about ego, but feeling like an insignificant speck in the grand cosmos, and standing in awe of it all.
My reverence, is a reverence for life, for humanity, and for the Earth itself. I try to live with respect for all three, although sometimes it is very difficult. But one is expected to at least try.
As for what happens after we die? I don't know. But I don't live my life as though I am trying to win favor with God and earn a place in Paradise. That's a selfish motivator. Just as being nice to avoid Hell is merely being motivated out of fear. Humanity is better than that, we don't need the promise of Heaven or the fear of Hell to motivate us to be better than what we are.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:31 pm
Mother Mo wrote:
"I also think that belief in a higher power might also indicate a fear of taking or accepting responsibilty for one's own existence. So many religious folks I know attribute all the success in their lives as being the will of a divine power & all their challenges as tests given by some divine task master. I'm more inclined to think of my ups and downs as a combination of chance & my own efforts. I don't need to feel to loved or disciplined by a divine parent. I give those things to myself as needed."
I couldn't agree more. I like to think of myself as a spiritual person, but I just can't do religion anymore. I've tried out everything from Wicca to Christianity, and all I ever noticed about organized religion is that most people are there to be seen by someone else. You just lose the connection because of all the interference. I also think Bone and Oni did a good job, so I won't say all that shit again here. My spiritual quest is esoteric; I take what I want from different philosophies such as Buddhism and the Tao and incorporate them into my own beliefs.
If you're feeling confused about all this, try reading book one of the Conversations with God series. The first time I read it it confused the hell out of me (no pun intended), but after I read it again, it gave me some peace about all the searching.
Just remember, we're all in this mess together. The planet's been here a lot longer than any of us and I don't think it's going anywhere any time soon. So if we're to stick around for a while, we need to learn that this whole big ball is connected somehow and respect ourselves and everyone/everything in some way. Main theme in most religious philosophies: Love One Another.
Good Luck in Your Journey
"I also think that belief in a higher power might also indicate a fear of taking or accepting responsibilty for one's own existence. So many religious folks I know attribute all the success in their lives as being the will of a divine power & all their challenges as tests given by some divine task master. I'm more inclined to think of my ups and downs as a combination of chance & my own efforts. I don't need to feel to loved or disciplined by a divine parent. I give those things to myself as needed."
I couldn't agree more. I like to think of myself as a spiritual person, but I just can't do religion anymore. I've tried out everything from Wicca to Christianity, and all I ever noticed about organized religion is that most people are there to be seen by someone else. You just lose the connection because of all the interference. I also think Bone and Oni did a good job, so I won't say all that shit again here. My spiritual quest is esoteric; I take what I want from different philosophies such as Buddhism and the Tao and incorporate them into my own beliefs.
If you're feeling confused about all this, try reading book one of the Conversations with God series. The first time I read it it confused the hell out of me (no pun intended), but after I read it again, it gave me some peace about all the searching.
Just remember, we're all in this mess together. The planet's been here a lot longer than any of us and I don't think it's going anywhere any time soon. So if we're to stick around for a while, we need to learn that this whole big ball is connected somehow and respect ourselves and everyone/everything in some way. Main theme in most religious philosophies: Love One Another.
Good Luck in Your Journey
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:19 pm
thank you too everyone....this really gives me alot to think about...im trying to search out something that fits me...but im so fucked up and confused....by nature i am a liberal...yet i still hold onto the beleifs that i was brought up in....yea the whole goth thing went over well with my family...not. But right now i am studying books by Konstantinos....i really like this....I feal like i have found something that agrees with me.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:40 pm
here is my 2 cents.
its doesn't fucking matter.
do your best to be the best person that you can and leave it at that.
if that isn't good enough for whatever deity may exist, then fuck them. i will gladly burn in hell.
religion imo is just something that was created to fill holes in our personalities. (fill holes TDOT style, you know, to not actually fix anything)
its doesn't fucking matter.
do your best to be the best person that you can and leave it at that.
if that isn't good enough for whatever deity may exist, then fuck them. i will gladly burn in hell.
religion imo is just something that was created to fill holes in our personalities. (fill holes TDOT style, you know, to not actually fix anything)
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:15 pm
I'm deffinately spiritual, just not terribly religious.
Every religion has many points which I don't believe are right, so I kinda do my own thing. I beleive in being kind and giving of self to those in need, and always looking for ways to help others. Religion, unfortunately, is really about conforming oneself to the exact belief system of a certain "denomination".
Personally, I think my denomination is the 2 dollar bill. The odd one for which there is no drawer slot.
Every religion has many points which I don't believe are right, so I kinda do my own thing. I beleive in being kind and giving of self to those in need, and always looking for ways to help others. Religion, unfortunately, is really about conforming oneself to the exact belief system of a certain "denomination".
Personally, I think my denomination is the 2 dollar bill. The odd one for which there is no drawer slot.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:33 pm
Hmmm. Personally, I have no use for organized religion, especially Judeo-Christian, although I grew up Catholic.
It is a handy device for people who feel the need the illusion of being safe and managed.
In peace, it's a social vehicle to keep the ants functioning and playing nice together, keep the economy going, and keeping chaos and anarchy at bay. In war, it's the hate flavor of the month.
I'm more likely to look to my deceased ancestors and land spirits for assistance and good luck than I am to anything else.
Francesca
It is a handy device for people who feel the need the illusion of being safe and managed.
In peace, it's a social vehicle to keep the ants functioning and playing nice together, keep the economy going, and keeping chaos and anarchy at bay. In war, it's the hate flavor of the month.
I'm more likely to look to my deceased ancestors and land spirits for assistance and good luck than I am to anything else.
Francesca
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:47 pm
Religious, no, spiritual, yes. Yes, I go to a church almost every week, but it's mostly for the fellowship with others, a sense of connection to the community.
I spent some time studying Native American religious practices and have found that I am more comfortable with those concepts of 'religion' than just about any other. God is not some omnipotent being that you have to beg for everything you need. Grandfather is someone you converse with on a constant basis and tell him what you need or want. If you get it, you're grateful, if you don't, you really didn't need it. It's a much more intimate spiritual experience than anything else I've seen or been a part of, based on a very personal connection with a higher power.
I spent some time studying Native American religious practices and have found that I am more comfortable with those concepts of 'religion' than just about any other. God is not some omnipotent being that you have to beg for everything you need. Grandfather is someone you converse with on a constant basis and tell him what you need or want. If you get it, you're grateful, if you don't, you really didn't need it. It's a much more intimate spiritual experience than anything else I've seen or been a part of, based on a very personal connection with a higher power.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:13 pm
couple of points, and off-hand comments...
- following anything blindly is silly. baa-aa.
- very few people really follow the teachings of buddha and/or christ - especially the buddhists and the christians. this is very sad, but all the same, very true.
- i'm more than fairly convinced that if there were higher powers, any time they did spend in speculation of our species, would more than likely be spent deliberating why the hell we - as in humanity - don't grow up.
- if there is one true deity, one real person behind the scenes, an actual patron saint out there, it is tubgirl. tubgirl is better than you. tubgirl will always be better than you. all your base really belong to tubgirl. zeus once asked tubgirl to calm the fuck down, and she smited him with her +9 sphincter of dhoom. the world hasn't been the same since. bow down to tubgirl. tubgirl is your friend. tubgirl is your savior. put tubgirl in your veins.
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:02 pm
This is an interesting topic, so I'll throw my own beliefs into the proverbial hat.
I'm personally a deist. I believe that some kind of supreme being made up the "rules" (physics, evolution, etc), set everything in motion, and is now sitting back watching.
Why? I have no idea. Though a quote from Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land sounds good, though it doesn't exactly hit why everything was started.
"Holy boredom is sufficient reason for the creation of free will."
I'm personally a deist. I believe that some kind of supreme being made up the "rules" (physics, evolution, etc), set everything in motion, and is now sitting back watching.
Why? I have no idea. Though a quote from Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land sounds good, though it doesn't exactly hit why everything was started.
"Holy boredom is sufficient reason for the creation of free will."
hope this helps SOMEONE. and Why do I still care?
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:36 am
Higher power of this order of things is FEAR. Manmade or some deepshit "deity" made - who cares... fear of Death fear of being alone, fear of not fitting in with the rest (which I'm sure you all are so familiar with), fear of LIFE and true LIVING.
This Universe is pure Energy that traps everything within itself - a cruel, sadistic creation following circular pattern of perpetuating itself. Everything trapped inside is forced to follow that "circular curse"; just like an ant that is running around on a plate, thinking that it's going forward. Generation after generation, century after century. Order of this Universal prison is pain, fear, ignorance, greed, flesh, walls, limits, AND NO WAY OUT. Yes, unfortunately re-encarnation is nothing but an Energy/soul entrapment inside a different corpse each time... on a vast graveyard in various stages of decay. Recommended reading:
S. Baudelaire - "Flowers of Evil"
Lautreamont - "Chants of Maldaror"
Blake - "...Heaven and Hell"
As for me personally, my higher power is knowing that everything has it's end. Primordial Kaos is not some dumb energy molecules running into each other - it is the END OF ALL MATTER. And I personally would like to face that "power" that created this unimaginative, tastless filth after all is gone.
This Universe is pure Energy that traps everything within itself - a cruel, sadistic creation following circular pattern of perpetuating itself. Everything trapped inside is forced to follow that "circular curse"; just like an ant that is running around on a plate, thinking that it's going forward. Generation after generation, century after century. Order of this Universal prison is pain, fear, ignorance, greed, flesh, walls, limits, AND NO WAY OUT. Yes, unfortunately re-encarnation is nothing but an Energy/soul entrapment inside a different corpse each time... on a vast graveyard in various stages of decay. Recommended reading:
S. Baudelaire - "Flowers of Evil"
Lautreamont - "Chants of Maldaror"
Blake - "...Heaven and Hell"
As for me personally, my higher power is knowing that everything has it's end. Primordial Kaos is not some dumb energy molecules running into each other - it is the END OF ALL MATTER. And I personally would like to face that "power" that created this unimaginative, tastless filth after all is gone.
Re: hope this helps SOMEONE. and Why do I still care?
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:14 pm
Abomination wrote:And I personally would like to face that "power" that created this unimaginative, tastless filth after all is gone.
if you find reality, and all that it encompasses, to be "unimaginative" ... well, i don't mean to be rude, but you should look at things around you a tad bit closer.
as for your description of the end goal of reality, life, and all of its subsequent facets, i think the word you're looking for is "entropy." personally, i have to agree with that - to a point.
i believe you're either missing or leaving out entropy's counterbalance, however.
just my $0.02.
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:44 pm
"THE PHILOSOPHER"
Do you feel what I feel, see what I see,
hear what I hear
There is a line you must draw between your dream world and reality
Do you live my life or share the breath I breathe
LIES... Feed your judgment of others
Behold ... how the blind lead each other
The philosopher...
You know so much about nothing at all
Ideas that fall under shadows of theories that stand tall
Thoughts that grow narrow upon being verbally released
Your mind is not your own,
What sounds more mentally stimulating is how you make your choice
So you preach about how I’m supposed to be, yet you don’t know your
Own sexuality
LIES... Feed your judgment of others
Behold ... how the blind lead each other
The philosopher...
You know so much about nothing at all
Chuck Schuldiner 1993
Copyrighted.
Do you feel what I feel, see what I see,
hear what I hear
There is a line you must draw between your dream world and reality
Do you live my life or share the breath I breathe
LIES... Feed your judgment of others
Behold ... how the blind lead each other
The philosopher...
You know so much about nothing at all
Ideas that fall under shadows of theories that stand tall
Thoughts that grow narrow upon being verbally released
Your mind is not your own,
What sounds more mentally stimulating is how you make your choice
So you preach about how I’m supposed to be, yet you don’t know your
Own sexuality
LIES... Feed your judgment of others
Behold ... how the blind lead each other
The philosopher...
You know so much about nothing at all
Chuck Schuldiner 1993
Copyrighted.
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:17 pm
Abomination wrote:"THE PHILOSOPHER"
Do you feel what I feel, see what I see,
hear what I hear
There is a line you must draw between your dream world and reality
Do you live my life or share the breath I breathe
LIES... Feed your judgment of others
Behold ... how the blind lead each other
The philosopher...
You know so much about nothing at all
Ideas that fall under shadows of theories that stand tall
Thoughts that grow narrow upon being verbally released
Your mind is not your own,
What sounds more mentally stimulating is how you make your choice
So you preach about how I�m supposed to be, yet you don�t know your
Own sexuality
LIES... Feed your judgment of others
Behold ... how the blind lead each other
The philosopher...
You know so much about nothing at all
Chuck Schuldiner 1993
Copyrighted.
quoting pseudo-analytical poems and/or songs notwithstanding, how about a reply? i genuinely found your idea interesting, but i did, as i pointed out, find a few flaws in it.
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:07 pm
here is my 2 cents.
its doesn't fucking matter.
do your best to be the best person that you can and leave it at that.
if that isn't good enough for whatever deity may exist, then fuck them. i will gladly burn in hell.
I love you Ben =)
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:07 am
I trust in infinity...bigger , smaller...the word All comes to mind....as far as sunday school is concerned religeon is like a speeding ticket its there to keep you in line...I trust in God but i tie my camel first
Love Jeffg
Love Jeffg