creapyrob wrote:

junkie christ wrote:ill drop on this as well, good debate either way. sorry if it looked like i was diggin at you. just testing the waters.

No offense taken. A good lively debate is good for the spirit.

I believe I'm right, you believe you're right. It seems we've come to an impass, I'm gonna let this go at that.

agreed
this how ideas get explored. glad you see this most people just bellyache about it cuz they had to expand their ideas to someone.

Well< I havent posted in a long time, Bu tI thought this thread is as good as any. Of course I havent had time to read all the thread, But ive caught a couple of snippets to get me riled up so to speak.

And of cours ethe following opinions of mine might be skewed since I was there so take it all with a grain of salt if you will.

1. Saddam was a cruel vicious bastard. If you saw the fear in peoples eyes if you even metioned his name, you would only grasp the idea barely.
2. He did Gas people. He gased several thousand citizens N of Tikrit and Mosul to keep the Kurds from winning their freedom after the Iran/Iraq war. He gassed the hell outta the Kuwaitis on the border in 89.

Now as to this comparison as Bush being worse than Saddam. I have this to say.

1. Yes, Americans are in wars in two different countries. Callign them murderers is a slap in the face to them. THey are only doing what they are told to do. Every single Soldier, Sailor, Marine, and Airmen swore an oath of allegiaenc to the United States and each and every one of us stands by it. Call us sheep, call us weak minded fools, whatever. Ive got news for you, Id put any one of those "sheep" on higher standard than the poepl bad mouthing them.

2. having said 1., GW may have decided that America needed to go to war, However, It was not GW's word they went on. Th Congress is the ones, who are allowign these wars to continue, since and if Im a complete dumbass and not mistaken, the US Govt has this thing called "Check and Balances". THey can pull the plug at any time.

All I have left o say is this. Thank you 4th ID for finally finding that Bastard, so we can wrap this war up and bring our boys and girls hoem from Iraq.

Just my opinion mind you[/quote]

and yes I can type very well, so PFFFFFTTTT

I mena Cant type very well, I guess all the murdering Ive doen overseas affected that

I mean no disrespect but ....

Magilla wrote:THey are only doing what they are told to do. Every single Soldier, Sailor, Marine, and Airmen swore an oath of allegiaenc...

Couldn't the same be said about the Iraqi Troops, The Nazis is Germany, The Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor etc ?

The defense "I was just following orders" is simply not a defense.

If your CO were to order you to go shoot your mother in the head would that be the correct thing to do ?

I understand and respect the hardships that our troops go through. I in fact appriciate their willingness to endure great danger to protect our country.

I feel that our country needs to be more honest with its citizens.

I feel that tthe smoke and mirrors that our government is using are disgusting.

I feel that we are being two faced and hipocritical in our policies in the middle east. Atrocities have been going on there for hundreds of years and we turn our back on them. Only now that we have an oil baron for president do we have interest in the "terrorists" in oil rich Iraq.

During this conflict we are funding the Israli slaughter of Palestinians. We are helping the Israli people perform the same injustice on the Palestinians that we performed on the Native Americans.

As a Government and society our country is selfish and hypocritical.

no offense taken. Even following orders has its limits. Even the lowest Joe knows what isnt right most of the time. And personally, I didnt see any mothers shot through the head. That doesnt mean it hasnt happened. However this generalization that we are murdering innocents is ludicrous. Personally, I hate the idea of taking human life, but sometimes it happens, that is why it is called war. Unfortunately it happens, and unfortunately, as long as people disagree, there will be war in some form or another, its human nature.

And the smoke and mirrors that are being used to spin this war are done by not only the govt, (which is a natural phenomenon in any country) but most of it coems from the media and opinions not FACTS.

And I dont know what info you have about us using Iraqs oil. WE did not let the workers export ANY oil until about twp and half months ago. And even then, NOT ONE DROP was sold to the US. Most of it went to the UN. And the UN turned around and made an oil for food program in Iraq.

Now the war for oil thing is an obvious idea to look at. Personally I didnt see sucha thing, but I am just a common grunt, so what would I know. But instead let me offer this point of view. PUlle out your world map, atlas, or whatever adn tell me when you look at Iraq, does it not sit smnack dab in the center of the middle east. I honestly thing its more of strategic value for theis global war we're involved in.

Is the fact that we turn a blind eye to what is happening in Israel wrong? HEll yes it is. Should we not have turned a blind eye when the barracks were bombed in Beruit wrong. Were the Crusades wrong, the Inquisiton, The trail of tears? IMHO, yes they were. Mankind is inherently evil and untrustworthy, expecially when power is involved.

Even though you've been back in the states for a while, its still good to know that you are home safe and sound Magilla.

velocity wrote:I feel that our country needs to be more honest with its citizens.

When the media focuses on the bad its hard to look at the good.

How many schools have we built?

How many hospitals?

How many sick people have American Doctors who happen to be in the military have we treated?

These are just stastics to be filed away in reports when all the media pays attention to is the number of American troopers shot and shot at today.

I'm still just waiting for Prez.Bush to get on TV and say "Merry Christmas America! This is your present".

At which time I will know that reality is truely under my influence and shall start a cult of some sort.


Oh and JC.....+200pts. on Saddama Claus.

Hahaha!

I am not a Bush supporter but my boyfriend is and I have several friends who love him as well. My boyfriend doesn't completely agree with me but my conservative family and friends all have agreed with me when I say that, even if this hadn't happened, Bush would have found something. Yes, there have been no Weapons of Mass Destrucion found yet but I could almost guarantee that if Bush saw that there weren't any WMD's over there, he'd find a way to "find" them there, probably right before election time. I don't know if Bush will have to do this now that Saddam has been caught but I still believe that it would have happened, and might still....

Does anyone remember back in the day when the hippies cried mass mind control by the government by putting fluoride in the water? That's not actually how they do it and in my belief the government released that information to further protect themselves. I want you all to take a minute and ask yourselves how many things are so obviously wrong with this country that are never even spoken of. People (especially Americans) have to see some dude with a scruffy look to him, speaking harshly, and killing mass amounts of people in front of everyone to think....that guy is evil....that my friends is called desensitization. One of the oh so beautiful words to money hungry satan cocksuckers.

You can't see and most people won't believe because of this so called "mind control" why and how someone like Bush is so evil and such a horrible leader because over time it makes you more accepting of bullshit, it makes you much more lethargic than any human being should be (proven by cross-examining with peoples from other regions) and it basically makes you stupid. The best way I can further explain it is the fact that something like alcohol that makes you very belligerent, obnoxious, and doesn't promote ANY kind of thinking whatsoever being LEGAL and highly taxed (supported) by the government, whilst something like weed that lets you if you don't abuse it expand your thinking process, it promotes creativity, and is very relaxing.

Mind control is very real. It doesn't wear a mask like you may think, it doesn't try to hind, it has no need to be shady....it is in your face every day from sunup to sundown everywhere in this country. Bush is fully aware of it and supports it more than anyone else in this world. He makes obscene amounts of money for himself and others like him because of it. That makes him without a doubt ten-fold Satan compared to Saddam who looks like mother Theresea in my eyes.

Most of you will take what I said and not think too much about it and for that I'm deeply sorry.

Have you heard the news? The dogs are dead!

Ok I know why I hardly post here! By my 1st posting I ( and have to give SHADOW DANCER a big HUURAAA!!!!!) I meant with Saddam in custody, mayby things will get better for all ( hopefully ). Like our JAY coming back sone! Man you people are negative> I may not post here again. GEEEZE For it makes me sad:-( how this was taken out of proportion!

Wow, I have so much to say on this. But in the interest of time, I will try to keep it short.

First of all, JC, you lost a load of credibility in political discussions with me when you started using the insulting language refering to being able to see the hole in one's head where the propaganda is poured in. If you have a good point, you don't need this. This tactic is useful when you want people to be afraid to rebutt. I have heard it many times before, and every time I hear it now it screams WEAK ARGUEMENT. And this goes for everyone. If you have a good arguement, it will speak for itself. If not, don't cloud the waters with insults. I see through them and I hope that others do as well.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that you do not have valid points, but you do yourself no favors by such tactics.

Now on to the politics. First of all, I have no doubt that there is a definate political modivation in all of this. I am sure Bush has been skipping down the halls of the White House the past couple of days singing, "I'm getting re-elected, I'm getting re-elected." On the other side, Howard Dean is publicly making statements that the world is not safer with Saddam in custody (I may be mis quoting on that, but I am pretty sure I am close) It truly sickens me that the state of politics in this country puts brave men and women in harms way just to increase re-election chances. And this is not a knock on any one party. Most of the greedy bastards in Washington would send their grandmothers to the front lines for a chance to move up in the polls.

Logic, of course people are trying to control our minds. Ever commerical you watch on the stoopid box (aka TV) is specially designed to influence your thinking. Ever speech that any political figure gives has been written and re-written to get you to nod your head in agreement. Ever person weaves their words to be as convincing as possible. As far as the desensitization, I have news for you. The world is a nasty place. Terrible things happen ever day. Most of the time we do not even hear about them. Saddam just happens to be the evil guy with the target on his back. I find it tough to believe that just because the media portrays him as the enemy that he is really a good guy.

If you want something to bitch about, bitch about the way the government portrays and positions itself to be our savior. They regulate the food we eat, the shows we watch, the products we buy. We feel safe because the Big Brother is looking out for us. And because of this, we stop watching out for ourselves. We don't feel like we need to be wary of deals that are too good to be true because the government will not let us make a bad deal. We don't feel like we need to be able to defend ourselves personally because the government will do that for us.

This is the thing that really scares me because if the government were to become our enemy or if for some reason the government were to fail, we would not know how to defend ourselves. We are becoming a nation of stupid spoiled children who expect Big Brother to give us what we need instead of getting it for ourselves.

Oh, how I would love to rant longer, but most have probably stopped reading already. And I have yet to get into party politics really.

I don't even know how to respond besides saying that I agree and that we're all fucked anyway. I would feel much better with Saddam still in power and Bush executed. Though I don't believe in the death penalty

I'm going to be the happiest person on earth (or wherever i might be at the time) if Saddam is tried and killed and the US is nuked into oblivion.

Logic wrote:
I'm going to be the happiest person on earth (or wherever i might be at the time) if Saddam is tried and killed and the US is nuked into oblivion.

You will be dead......can I embalm you?

LadyIvanna wrote:

Logic wrote:
I'm going to be the happiest person on earth (or wherever i might be at the time) if Saddam is tried and killed and the US is nuked into oblivion.

You will be dead......can I embalm you?

Maybe DarkAlf can plan his funeral.

LadyIvanna wrote:

Logic wrote:
I'm going to be the happiest person on earth (or wherever i might be at the time) if Saddam is tried and killed and the US is nuked into oblivion.

You will be dead......can I embalm you?

nah, you need an ashtray

creapyrob wrote:Vader: I'd like to see that evidence that said he didn't do it. Really I would.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/helms.html

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1991/12/12p10b.htm

There are many others - it seems that there is considerable evidence that the gas that was used in the attacks on the Kurds was a cyanide gas that Iraq didn't have at the time - but Iran did.

I'm not saying he definately isn't responsible for it, and he is certainly a murderer - but so is the Illegitimate President. After all, the Bushes are responsible for far more Iraqi deaths than Saddam ever was, and they are also known for killing their own people.

And as for him going into witness protection I have this to say:

1 word: Mossad

Those fella's are still tracking down Nazi's and the war has been over for amost 60 years. There isn't anywhere safe for that man. If we say we aren't going to allow the death penality in his trial someone somewhere will kill him while he is in our custody.

Israel has no reason to turn him into a martyr, and that's what an Israeli hit on him would do.

I think you're underestimating our ability to keep this man safe if we want to.

I'm going to add a few things here.

Magilla, I'm glad to see you back safely. I want the same for Jay, and every other American in Iraq right now. I think there is a small group of Americans over there who are likely murderers - but the vast majority of our troops are only their job, and doing it well.

I have issues with the leadership that ordered the job to be done, not the men and women doing it.

Too many have died already.

I'm not calling Saddam a hero, I have in fact called him a murderer. I think he's probably a nastier individual than Bush - if not by much. Bush just doesn't have the same level of control that Saddam did - I don't believe for a minute that he wouldn't do some of the things Saddam did if he thought he could get away with it.

I consider Bush to be one of the worst presidents in recent history - worse by far than Nixon, and possibly worse than Reagan. The worst part of that is that he shouldn't even be in office - he lost the election.

What would I have us do at this point? I would turn Iraq over to a UN peacekeeping force with no British or Americans involved, and a clear deadline (or at least clear steps Iraq should achieve) for getting out. I would put Saddam into witness protection, as there is no way he could ever get a fair trial anywhere.

DarkVader, I would agree to gettign us the hell out and let someone else do the job, but definately NOT the UN. Having worked with them in combat zones before, I can honestly say that apart from the French Foreign Legion, the UN peacekeepers are the most ineffectual, beureaucrat, socialist bastards on the planet. Ive seen too many people die as a result of the UNs incompetency.

Having said that, I will leave this dead horse alone with this. Thanks to the board fo rthe support yall gave us while we were over there. And think of Jay and a bunch of other friedns and comrades still over there as the next few weeks come and the bad guys start their desperation attacks.

ANd tho this is directed at no one in particular. Opinions are great, thats what amde this country great is the fact we can have differing opinions and the such. But just remebe rthis, its easy to badmouth and criticize when your ass isnt on the line.