tat2jay wrote:im gonna respond to posts one on one, mostly cuz i dont feel like cutting and pasting all the things i want to respond to into one post, so sue me.
anyway -
if you dont think anything has been accomplished other than killing, talk to me at the coffee shop or sanctus and i can tell you what else is going on over there.

I'd be happy to talk to you about it. I know there are a lot of Americans over there who really want to improve the situation for Iraqis. It might even work.

But I think the war has made America less safe, both from the rest of the world and from our own government.

I think it's time to turn this one over to the UN, and cut and run.

i've been thinking about this, mulling it over in my mind, and i agree with lady ivanna. it is war, and i bet that the EPW wouldn't think twice about torturing, doing far worse to our POW. i look at this way, what if tat2jay had been captured, and he had been tortured and been brutalized than we could possibly fathom? we would all want to have a very large lynchmob.

as i have said already, and will say a million times more, i am glad to live in a country where i have freedoms, rights and priviledges. without our military, we wouldn't have the life we have, and we should be thankful.

People just suck. I don't care if it's your co-workers or your enemies in war, the plain and simple fact is, people suck.

First off this is not going to be my most coherent of posts. This issue has raised plenty of questions and thoughts in my hand most of them jumbled up in a motley manner. But running the gamut...

Personally I deplore it because it is the degregation of human life. Foremost above all. On that level I don't care how it got orchistrated ,who's responsible, or any of the varied political conspiracy theories.

That's base now for the rest...the more political savy junk.

First thing off this is destroying US credebility across the globe. Not too many nations thought we were in the right to begin with, now they have a bone of imense proportion to pick Just imagine trying to win over the Middle East now.. And what's worse is that by the administrations own word this is just the beginning.

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/05/ ... index.html

Second..this was happening months ago and just now the public is getting wind of this. Just now the military is ivestigating?

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/05/ ... index.html
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/05/ ... index.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... 4May5.html

By reports now being given out this is not just a few isolated incidents but rather a emerging pattern of abuse. Hopefully this wise some sort of middle management decision and the top brass in no way aproved of these actions. Right now I don't know. I honeslty doubt if Bush knew anything about this until the present time. Maybe tha'ts my faith in human nature but until I see evidence that Bush or Rumsfield was somehow connected to the abuses I see no point in accusing them of anything save possibly slack leadership in this situation.

In any case my emotinal sacrastic point. Ok First of all it was about Terroism and Weppons of Mass Destruction. When that was sorto f um....passed over...it then became a war for freedom and the rights of human beings.

Now what?

DarkVader wrote:But you're saying that even if that happened, it's ok to treat prisoners of war that we hold badly? Aren't we supposed to be the "good guys" here?

I think that in an effort to breakdown a persons mental defenses and to either train them for a job or break them so they will talk you do what you have to do, within limits.

The military does it to every person that joins, its called boot camp. They take away your sense of self and make you into a team member. Thats why everyone has the same hair cut and wear the same clothes. There are not 'individuals' there is your group.

The same thing happens in American prisions. When you go in they walk you through inspections as naked as the day you were born.

So why should we treat these enemy combatants any different than prisoners in our system?

AH but where is the limit drawn? That is the question. The ends should justify the means.

I think the Geneva Convention needs to be reevaluated on many fronts including interragation. It is a document that is a handy 'guideline' but has a great deal of impracality in the face of modern warfare. The exemptions of 'chemical' weapons is a great example. CS Gas "tear gas" is a common weapon used by law enforcement to quell disturbances. But it is forbidden in warfare by the Geneva Convention cause its a chemical irritant. Now its still used cause the means justify the ends. You can gas a building and take the people inside prisoner or you can bomb the building into the stoneage or you can take the building by force. THe latter 2 leaving the larger body counts, the foremost having a 0 body count.

As to interragation why should we be 'forbidden' to march prisoners around naked as we do it in our prison systems? Cause some document written almost 100 years ago says so?

Comparatively, a few humiliating pictures being the limit of our proveable wrongdoing by individuals in Iraq, I think America isn't doing too bad. I mean really, some cool art is coming out of it: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... use_in_art .

My question to all of you out there is this: With media attention being focussed on these so-called atrocities in Iraq, what major issue is being neglected at home?

After watching a half-day of TV news coverage with my Dad, I've come to the conclusion that the events in Iraq and their investigation are nothing more than a puffed up vehicle to sway election votes. Is it working? I dunno, how many people have decided not to vote for the reelection of Bush that would have done so beforehand over this issue?

If you will also notice, coverage on the political battle over gay marriage has dwindled dramatically in the face of this "latest national crisis". Keep your eye on the ball ladies and gentlemen, it tends to bounce from political hand to political hand.

Jay, when I see you at Sanctus, I'll be more than happy to cover your bar tab because I respect your willingness to give your view of events in Iraq to any who ask in person, especially since you have recently returned from there, and I do not think that it should be your sole responsibility to educate the unknowledgeable.

mafiaman wrote:My question to all of you out there is this: With media attention being focussed on these so-called atrocities in Iraq, what major issue is being neglected at home?

I posted it once and I will post it again.



WAG

THE


DOG

I'm still voting for Bush and nothing or nobody can sway me from that.Satan himself could run for president as long as he has an R by his name he gets my vote.My thoughts about the "horrible acts" goin on over there its all a bunch of bullshit.We can draw the line when we start hanging burnt iraqi from the brooklyn bridge and all chant "death to iraqi".But you see were america and we dont do that.What some people fail to realise is that over there in the middle east.The only way you can speak to them over there is through violence.Much like Forrest Gump thats all i got to say about that.

mafiaman wrote:Jay, when I see you at Sanctus, I'll be more than happy to cover your bar tab because I respect your willingness to give your view of events in Iraq to any who ask in person, especially since you have recently returned from there, and I do not think that it should be your sole responsibility to educate the unknowledgeable.

OFFTOPIC

thanks so much jeff for the offer, but with my recent habits i dont know that a single person could EVER afford to cover my tab, hahaha
but thank you
and as far as educating about whats going on, well its part of the job and not a part i mind doing really

Some of you may find this interesting. I certainly did in light of what I posted as my arguments for the abuses of prisoners held in Iraq. I argued that as a means of targeted interrogation, a case could be made for allowing treatment that humiliated or mind-fucked a prisoner into cooporation. I did not mean to imply that I thought that this sort of treatment of the prison poulation as a whole was acceptable, nor would physical abuse be acceptable in any case. Looks like what we all saw last week was the tip of the iceburg and what we will see in the coming weeks is even worse

Anyway, on with the story. Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller (The commanding officer of the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba) went to Iraq in September to advise on the collection of intelligence from prisoners. His conclusion: It was "essential that the guard force be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees." He also said that interrogations were harmed by a lack of active control of prisoners.

But, as the head of the facility at Guantanamo Bay, he deals with suspected terrorists in a location and situation that does NOT deal with the Geneva Convention and sort of operates in a world all its own, answering to no one.

The problem is that Maj. Gen. Miller may have wrongly applied interrogation procedures for suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay to prisoners in Iraq. This would have included active involvement by the MPs with the prisoners.

This is the man NOW investigating charges of abuse at Abu Gareb - the former commander in Guantanamo Bay. The man whose own recommendations seem to have taken Abu Gareb to the state that it is currently in. Ironic huh? Here's a quote from him about the changes taking place:

"Trust us. We are doing this right."

So in light of todays events with iraqi scum chopping off the head of an innocent dude over there just doing his job. In turn can we tie an innocent iraqi up in an orange jump suit then talk about how all iraqi are bad and then cut his head off? Yea so in light of what happen today i really find what we did very harmless

ya know...i just watched that....i've got a pretty hardcore stomach...and i gotta say, the decapitation wasn't horrid..the screams were. Made me appreciate life a little bit more actually.

now maybe somebody won't be putting panties on iraqi's heads and taking pictures...

The video that everyone is buzzing over with dude having his head cut off, well, sawed off is more like it, I saw it. All I have to say is what our soldiers did to the Iraqi prisoners is by no means ok. or does it justify what the Iraqis did to this poor man. We need to get our troops the FUCK out of there & nuke the place! And what about the innocent children you say? Well if their raising them to be that way WHO CARES! That video was sick & disturbing! Their cutting off his head while sodomizing him and chanting ALLAH! PRAISE ALLAH!! That is fucked up & they are obviously a bunch of fucking PSYCHOS!!! NUKE THEM AND BE DONE WITH IT!!! And that's my 2 cents!

My 2 cents is simply....GET BUSH OUT OF THE FUCKING WHITE HOUSE and get our troops out of a place that doesn't mean shit. Let them have their cival war...they obviously have no money to buy a knife that can cut thru a neck quicker than 3 minutes...so i'm pretty godamn sure they don't have nukes.....or maybe they spent their budget on nukes, and had to pick up one of those dollar knives at the 711 over there.....who knows. regardless, whos fucking buisiness is it for us to be there.....

X wrote:GET BUSH OUT OF THE FUCKING WHITE HOUSE

Agreed!

Oh. My.

For one I'd like to say I never claimed to be a Democrat. I don't belong to any particular party.

American's are supposed to be setting an example for the world.

Just because some extremist Iraqis humilate and kill someone, that gives us the right to do it? I think not.

I don't understand the attitude that alot of people in the world have....wanting to blow up Iraq....just kill 'em all! I mean, you can't judge a whole race, or culture, or whatver by what some extremist assholes do!!! There are VERY good people in Iraq. People that WANT peace, and democracy.

I never said that we haven't done anything good there, either. Because we have. I just believe that isn't the goal. I believe we have to make ourselves look good, and in the process, good things have happened.

I'm glad that we have helped the Iraqi people. They needed it. The schools, hospitals, all the help that they have received....It makes me feel good, like at least SOMETHING positive is happening, even though I'm afraid it is only temporary.....

I am also proud of our soldiers. I have said this time and time again. They are just doing their jobs. There are soldiers out there that give a damn, like Jay, that I am extremely proud of. These soldiers care about humanity. But, then there are soldiers like the stupid fucks in the pictures that were caught humiliating prisoners. They disgust and shame me. They are quite embarassing.

The video of the beheading of Nick Berg that has come out.....

Ok, I know I am lil miss conspiracy here....

But, how do we even know those were Iraqis behind those masks???? I mean.....ugh....It's horrible to think, but what if they are some of "ours"???

To take pressure off the US with the whole humiliating picture scandal. The US citizens would say, see, what we did to them is nowhere nearly bad as what they did to one of ours. The rest of the world, would be like, damn, look what these people are doing to americans, no wonder!

I mean, it is possible....Ya know, look at what happened with the cuban missle crisis!

I mean, we sent people to hire cubans and train them to be terrorists....then we were like, god damn, they have all these terrorists! Lets get em! I dunno....

These are scary times we live in....

I know everything will never be perfect. But, I do wish it could get a little bit better. All of this hate we have in this world. Humans are so fucking destructive. It's sad. It really is.

I'm also wigged out over the whole Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Ugh.

I often wander if anyone thinks of how this man felt, what was going through his mind. Or how his own mother must have reacted. And what is going through a persons mind while they are tormenting someone. Are they even human? How can someone just do this, & other unspeakable acts of nature, to another human being? My response to the video is to wipe them from existense because it pisses me off & if we really ARE there to help them, why do they hate us so much? It is obvious they don't want our help, so what the fuck are we still doing over there? I see this only getting worse.

RavenLunatic wrote:I often wander if anyone thinks of how this man felt, what was going through his mind. Or how his own mother must have reacted. And what is going through a persons mind while they are tormenting someone. Are they even human? How can someone just do this, & other unspeakable acts of nature, to another human being? My response to the video is to wipe them from existense because it pisses me off & if we really ARE there to help them, why do they hate us so much? It is obvious they don't want our help, so what the fuck are we still doing over there? I see this only getting worse.

That was actually the most disturbing part....you could almost hear his thoughts in his screams. I've seen....alot of decapitations, murders and all the like...not really THAT bad.....the human side of me got caught up in it for a moment...and the human side reacted.