Nephilim wrote: Being a 'good person' comes from doing good for the sake of doing good, not for doing good because you fear some sort of retribution or want a reward.

Again, that depends whether you're using an abstract moral concept of "good" or a societal one.

If someone wants to give change to beggars every day, and does, is he more of a "good" person than someone who wants to rape and kill children but suppresses those desires and volunteers at a homeless shelter?

Jack wrote:

Nephilim wrote: Being a 'good person' comes from doing good for the sake of doing good, not for doing good because you fear some sort of retribution or want a reward.

Again, that depends whether you're using an abstract moral concept of "good" or a societal one.

If someone wants to give change to beggars every day, and does, is he more of a "good" person than someone who wants to rape and kill children but suppresses those desires and volunteers at a homeless shelter?

I would say so cause deep down at the core of the person who wants to rape and kill children but doesn't, is a bad person. They are supressing it. It's good that they surpress it...but for how long will they? I guess that's a whole different subject, tho.
It's all based on each individual persons opinion...there really is no right or wrong answer. People's views of what (or who) is good and bad are different. Just as peoples tatse in clothes and music differ. Surpressing their homicidal urges to kill children doesn't make them a bad person, but who's to say it makes them a good person, either?

vicious_blood wrote:I would say so cause deep down at the core of the person who wants to rape and kill children but doesn't, is a bad person. They are supressing it. It's good that they surpress it...

But that person is exercising free will and conciously deciding to be good. What if someone is genetically or societally predisposed to do good, and does it without thinking? They're not being good because they want to; they're just doing what the chemicals in their brain tell them to do.

[this is paraphrased from Waking Life, because I can't find a webpage with the exact quote]

"Think about free will. We can only be held responsible or admired for things we choose of our own free will."

Jack wrote:[this is paraphrased from Waking Life, because I can't find a webpage with the exact quote]
"Think about free will. We can only be held responsible or admired for things we choose of our own free will."

You have a point there.

But I'm confused by this...

Jack wrote:They're not being good because they want to; they're just doing what the chemicals in their brain tell them to do.

What kind of chemicals are you talking about? As far as I know we were BORN with free will and the ability to make decisions. We are TAUGHT what is good and bad...is that what you mean? I don't think our sartonin (sp?) or whatever other chemical levels make us do good or bad just cause we have an excess or depletion of it. But maybe I'm just misunderstanding that statement.

vicious_blood wrote:What kind of chemicals are you talking about? As far as I know we were BORN with free will and the ability to make decisions.

Nobody has ever solved the mystery of free will. The only thing we can prove at the moment is that every single physical act we perform is a chemical, physical process and is subject to chemical and physical law. Even every thought we have is an electrical phenomenon. Unless you believe or hope in the existance of some kind of soul which exists outside the realm of physical, chemical law (which I do), it is entirely possible - some would say overwhelmingly probably - that nobody chooses anything they do, that all life is the playing out of chemical/physical law.

[Yes, I paraphrased a lot of that from Waking Life, as well, because the professor in it put it a lot more clearly than I could..]

Mmmm...Dopamines make me happy...No really...They MAKE me be happy....

Jack wrote:Nobody has ever solved the mystery of free will. The only thing we can prove at the moment is that every single physical act we perform is a chemical, physical process and is subject to chemical and physical law. Even every thought we have is an electrical phenomenon. Unless you believe or hope in the existance of some kind of soul which exists outside the realm of physical, chemical law (which I do), it is entirely possible - some would say overwhelmingly probably - that nobody chooses anything they do, that all life is the playing out of chemical/physical law.

[Yes, I paraphrased a lot of that from Waking Life, as well, because the professor in it put it a lot more clearly than I could..]

Which is why I fear that one day, we're going to wind up with behavioral implants (be they nano-tech, or chemical based, or both) that are commonly used in society to control the chemical and/or electrical impulses within the human brain to thereby control a person's behavior.

Which when in effect, while not solving the mystery of free will, certainly will make it a moot point for those with the aforementioned implants.

Anyone ever heard of the Video game 'Quarentine'?...The plot line is rediculiously possable...The background story is as follows:

In the near future...In a fictional city, based off of the current state of Detroit...They drop a psychoactive drug in the water supply that denies the chemicals, & electiricl impulses to commit violent acts...After working so well on the average citizen for a few months...They release larger & larger convicted criminals into population...The drug reacts with the bacteria in the water supply & indeed inhances the violent impulses of the criminals..& later the cizilans...

Sounds like something the government would actually try...I doubt that many of you have heard of this game..For it was only released for the Panasonic/3DO R.E.A.L. console...But is derived from the PC game Carmageddon...[/tangent]

As for the free-will issue...That was sort of my point...Most people...Even you spiritual advisors, are mostly compelled into 'good', through fear of retrebution...Not out of purity...Why do you think the Holy Bible, Qu'ran, etc speak of the horrors that could be endured, if you're a 'bad' person on Earth...

If you follow the rules of karma, even if it's just to cover your own ass, does that make you a good person?

define good person
we all have to fuck over someone to survive on some level. taking resources in life is required to survive, someone always needs/wants/deserves it more.

following the rules of karma is a shitty way of saying i hope since Y is a bastard bad things happen to Y
i hope if I do good then good things will happen to me, but i hope they dont happen to Y because hes a shithead.

Well I would just say not to go totally out of your way to do bad things to others, I mean sometimes you have to do things that are kinda cruel, but that I would have to be forgivable if there was no other way... but if you do something terrible to a person just to "get back" at them or just for the hell of it, yeah there will be repercussions.....hell look at the fact that I was a bitch to my roommate the other day and in the same day I had to go to the hospital because I cut my hand.... worst of all the blade of the knife said "he bled for us" and had a cross on it....creepy

vinylpirate wrote:Well I would just say not to go totally out of your way to do bad things to others, I mean sometimes you have to do things that are kinda cruel, but that I would have to be forgivable if there was no other way... but if you do something terrible to a person just to "get back" at them or just for the hell of it, yeah there will be repercussions.....hell look at the fact that I was a bitch to my roommate the other day and in the same day I had to go to the hospital because I cut my hand.... worst of all the blade of the knife said "he bled for us" and had a cross on it....creepy

I WANT THAT KNIFE!!! SERIOUSLY...I WANT IT!!!

dude you can totally have it...its evil...and not the good kind

Where can I come pick it up at?

He doesn't want the knife...he just wants to stalk you...

No...I really want the knife...Imagine the imagery...

He wants to stalk you with the knife...

If I where going to stalk someone...I'd do it with one of my own weapons...Such as my HK USC, or my sawed-off..Not a fuckin' knife...Haven't you seen any Horror films...Knives suck for stalking...The get stuck in things...You drop them, etc...Firearms on the other hand...Perfect...Intimidating, Ergodynamic, & most importantly...Semi-automatic!!!

Uh, you can drop firearms, too.
If I'm gonna be psycho enough to stalk someone, then I'm gonna be a knife carrying psycho.

vicious_blood wrote:Uh, you can drop firearms, too.
If I'm gonna be psycho enough to stalk someone, then I'm gonna be a knife carrying psycho.

Yeah, knives are harder to hear from a distance when you use them. Much better for not alerting anyone to your, uh, activities.

Nephilim wrote:

vicious_blood wrote:Uh, you can drop firearms, too.
If I'm gonna be psycho enough to stalk someone, then I'm gonna be a knife carrying psycho.

Yeah, knives are harder to hear from a distance when you use them. Much better for not alerting anyone to your, uh, activities.

Yep. If I was going to be a serial killer I would be the slicing, dicing, fucking brutal psychotic person...oh wait...I kinda already am.