There are quite a few little known secrets about me one of them is that I come from a long line of Christian Pastors we burried one last night as a matter of fact. I used to attend church regularly but I got away from it when I found that most every church bargins for money. Even if the begining is about faith the end result turns into how much tithe you can get..

I was, several times told that I was ordained by Christ as a minister. I have always kind of stepped away from the idea seeing as I do not see myself as any kind of rolemodel, nor do I wish to try to force my religious beliefs on anyone. I believe that as a Christian it is not my place to force my beliefs.

All of that having been said I was asked once what my ministry would be based upon when I got ordained in the church. ( that never happened I quit going before it did) and I thought long and hard about it.. My ministry would be that sometimes you have to walk into the darkness to bring the light. It's so true and so simplistic. In my down time I sit, sometimes for hours in the pagan chat rooms on Yahoo. I have found that most of the people there have given up on Christianity because their belief in God did not outweigh their belief that they should a) not judge and b) not have to financially support God.

It's real simple folks God doesn't need my money. He has streets paved with gold as the old baptist preachers say. I believe in the idea of the tithe, but not the practice of it as it is today.. I believe in the idea of bringing the message of God to the world, but not as it is done in most places today.. I believe that some of what the bible says has been muddled down and changed through out the years as Man has tainted it with his own take on things.

Let us take for example in Exodus 22:18 where the King James version of the bible reads clearly "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" it is pretty evident there that the bible speaks out against witchcraft.. Appearantly, but it is my understanding that in actual understanding of the bible it does not speak of a witch as we know today, or even of the 'pagans" of old it speaks of soothsayers and false prophets.. Now come on.. didn't we all want to stone Miss Cleo?

As far as a Christian Goth church goes.. Anytime you guys want you can come to my house, We'll sit about talk about the bible and have a good old time in church.. Because the bible says "where two are gathered in my name, there I shall be also" It doesn't matter what day of the week it is on.. The scripture reads "remember the sabbath to keep it holy" the Sabbath supposedly to mean the seventh day, when God rested.. The Scripture also speaks of time and God, saying that to god a day was like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a Day.. So perhaps we are only supposed to rest after 7000 years.. The Sabbath has came to mean Sunday, but I do not believe that it has to be Sunday, I believe that any day that you can set aside, gather with your friends or family, those who share your faith, have a good talk about the bible and come to a bit better of an understanding is just that.. a Holy day.. A sabbath Day....

Truth be told, I believe we have the makings of something phenominal here. Keep up with the ideas, I check this thread often. I'll be back to check it even more often now that I have posted.

I am a Goth who became saved from doing research. There is more evidence scientiifically and historically for God then against. Plus its a win win situation either way it goes I live a good life and on the chance there is a God which there is I go to eternal paradise. I would drive any amount of miles I had to if there was a gothic christian church. I am non denominational ,because alot of people are judgemental. The largest cause of atheism is people who say they love God with their lips,but deny him by their lifestyle. Plus there are alot of christian goth bands out now that totally rock!!

Those of you who know me, know that I am very "Pagan"....and those of you who know what that really means knows that it doesnt mean that we dont believe in "God". I think what you all are trying to do here is a great idea. I try to attend the unitarian church @ times. I reall y like it. Personally, I have my ways of worship and groups of like minded pagans that I used to love worshiping with. Havent had that in awhile. I believe there are beautifull and valid lessons to be learned from every religion......Good for you guys! Ill support you in your "Gothic Christian Church"......doesnt mean ill be hanging out there, but I think its a great idea to find your path again, if thats what you need....and think about it! All those "christians" that dont accept our lifestyle becaouse of the way we look and the music we listen to, etc......what a statement......because God accepts us no matter what we look like....and whos to say that you are not a christian because of the way you look? Think of the impact and lives you could reach and help by accepting them....isnt that what Christ did? He hung out with the hookers, drug addicts, etc.....and showed them unconditional love.....NOT rejection and damnation......in some senses I consider myself a 'Christian' too. The word means "Christ-like".......and if we all strive to live our lives more like the "Christ" and be more like he lived, the world would be a better place...I mean really think about it.....so in 'some' sense I strive to live a 'healers' path too.....and how more "Gothic" in a sense can you get. Especially the old testament and Revelations. Morbid stuff @ times folks!
I gave my friend Jeff this link. He is a old school goth from way back in the day, one of my best friends, and a christian. One of the true ones that I know and respect.........who has the "real" christian attitude, in my opinion........He is very interested in this and may can help a little.

Seraphim wrote:I am a Goth who became saved from doing research. There is more evidence scientiifically and historically for God then against. Plus its a win win situation either way it goes I live a good life and on the chance there is a God which there is I go to eternal paradise

if you have to have evidance to believe in a god, it defeats the need for faith, which is the building block for any religion.


just a thought.

and if your religious just for the reward, well, then why bother?

good point

My faith came later because no matter how much evidence you find ,there is always someone trying to tear you down, and that is when I realized I could debate endlessly, but it all comes down to do you really just believe. I agree with you it is ,faith!

Well, I guess the real question is what faith means, in the context of Christian believe. One of my favorite authors put it like this; faith isn't believing in God, he reasons, because even demons believe in God. Faith is actually relating to the relationship and dependency one has on God.

you are right.

Seraphim wrote:I am a Goth who became saved from doing research. There is more evidence scientiifically and historically for God then against.

Um, pretty much no, there isn't.

When you look at it scientifically, there is no way to say either way. Things were either created by a divine creator or there wasn't. If he exists, sadly he didn't leave a signature, no matter how cool the human eye is.

As for historical data....um, pretty much none, zero, zilch. The bible was written by men folks, accept it. Its a myth, just like the roman/greek gods and goddesses.

I think most people are christian because of fear.

So yes, as junkie stated, its all about complete BLIND FAITH...if there is a god he wouldn't leave you these obvious clues and "facts" you refer to.

Scientifically and historically, there is no proof, so in my mind, that means, logically and rationally, he does not exist. If more signs pointed to "yes" I might be willing to push it into the realm of "theory" which makes it extremely likely but not absolutely proven, such as gravity and evolution, both which I have a good degree of faith in. However, Xtians choose to see everything as pointing to Yes, whereas those who use logic see more things pointing to no or being neutral. Nothing in nature makes me think "oh yes, there has to be a divine creator."

Hardcoregirl wrote:

Seraphim wrote:I am a Goth who became saved from doing research. There is more evidence scientiifically and historically for God then against.

Um, pretty much no, there isn't.

When you look at it scientifically, there is no way to say either way. Things were either created by a divine creator or there wasn't. If he exists, sadly he didn't leave a signature, no matter how cool the human eye is.

As for historical data....um, pretty much none, zero, zilch. The bible was written by men folks, accept it. Its a myth, just like the roman/greek gods and goddesses.

I think most people are christian because of fear.

So yes, as junkie stated, its all about complete BLIND FAITH...if there is a god he wouldn't leave you these obvious clues and "facts" you refer to.

Scientifically and historically, there is no proof, so in my mind, that means, logically and rationally, he does not exist. If more signs pointed to "yes" I might be willing to push it into the realm of "theory" which makes it extremely likely but not absolutely proven, such as gravity and evolution, both which I have a good degree of faith in. However, Xtians choose to see everything as pointing to Yes, whereas those who use logic see more things pointing to no or being neutral. Nothing in nature makes me think "oh yes, there has to be a divine creator."

I thought the Header said "Gothic Christianity anyone?" If you are not interested , wouldn't a simple no suffice ? I am amazed to see members of the Goth Community act like the very fundamentalist Christians they seem to despise . Leave the judgement to the idiots . The greatest thing about the Goth Community is non-judgement and inclusion . I'd love to see that re-appear . It used to be the norm . What's it to ya if someone else wants to explore THEIR spiritual path ?

one of my oldest and dearest friends is a Pagan. Well most of my friends are but this one in particular comes to mind as I read what No boogerman said. Here's why.. On darkguild we got into a debate. and this one person posted something stupid about Christians trying to take over the world.

my pagan friend responded, and things went down hill from there.. but.. one of the things he said.. I will never forget it .. "Pagans are more annoying than Christians now" and via and large, it's almost true. I mean I have found some really amazing and accepting Christian Folk, and I have found some really Amazing and accepting Pagan folk.. and I even have a friend who is a member of Antone Levay's church of Satan or wtfever it is..

One of the things I have learned is, like Noboogerman said

I am amazed to see members of the Goth Community act like the very fundamentalist Christians they seem to despise

come on guys.. Seriously we are not trying to impede on any pagan rights, we are simply trying to have our own ...

NoBoogerMan wrote:I thought the Header said "Gothic Christianity anyone?" If you are not interested , wouldn't a simple no suffice ? I am amazed to see members of the Goth Community act like the very fundamentalist Christians they seem to despise . Leave the judgement to the idiots . The greatest thing about the Goth Community is non-judgement and inclusion . I'd love to see that re-appear . It used to be the norm . What's it to ya if someone else wants to explore THEIR spiritual path ?

Nope a simple "no" won't suffice. If you post it its free for anyone to comment upon. And as many times as I get preached at, have my right to choose abortion threatened, my fetish shows censored, my adult websites shutdown by fucking Christians, I'll be damned if I'm not gonna throw a little logic back at them. I'm not a christian so I can judge all I want to...and I think the goth community should be judging and discerning or else we'd be fucking hippies.

But isn't there a line between discerning/judging and descriminatory?

Shadow Of The Fox wrote:But isn't there a line between discerning/judging and descriminatory?

I am completly discriminatory against ignorant people. But who cares, its not like your application for gothdom has to be approved by me...lol.

i am currently dealing with this very problem, My girl is catholic, i am a fallen southern baptist youth minister, before i fell from grace i was very devout, now i chose to study the new age, i prefer dark age. We have chosen to keep this debate out of our relationship, she does her thing i do my thing. But here is the problem, other so called christians causing problems. They constantly tell her im a bad person for not believing in christ, they tell her that ill HURT her..(WTF!) I wouldnt hurt a fly. They tell her im a pimp, and a player, and im only looking for sex...ok she is my first girl, my first love, and if it continues the way it is she will be my first in bed. IM NOT A PLAYER!!! But these friggin christian pressume to judge me...I finnaly had enough and blew up on one of them the other day. I told her that she was no better than these fucking terrorists who kill babys in the name of religion. I told her that her type scares me, i said that her type gets my type killed every day in AMERICA of all places. I also told her that i am seeking a carreer in politics afrter i get back from IRAQ, and when i do ill make damn sure her doctrine of religous in toleration never makes it to the floor of congress....u want to know who is really the intolerant ones, Its Christians....how many people have died in the name of christ....a shit load....NEEDLESSLY!!!

It's 2006.. and people still believe in these fairy tales. It kind of pisses me off, you know, like when someone is saved from cancer using the latest human created technology, all the credit goes to some made up deity. It seems human ingenuity is an afterthought these days.

Haha, seems like these types of people always end up on the local news. You know what I'm saying, the slighty overweight woman hugging three kids and claiming that she was saved "by the grace of God" from the tornado and damaging winds. It's always in a Southern voice too. No wonder people think we sound stupid.

gothic_spleen wrote:i am currently dealing with this very problem, My girl is catholic, i am a fallen southern baptist youth minister, before i fell from grace i was very devout, now i chose to study the new age, i prefer dark age. We have chosen to keep this debate out of our relationship, she does her thing i do my thing. But here is the problem, other so called christians causing problems. They constantly tell her im a bad person for not believing in christ, they tell her that ill HURT her..(WTF!) I wouldnt hurt a fly. They tell her im a pimp, and a player, and im only looking for sex...ok she is my first girl, my first love, and if it continues the way it is she will be my first in bed. IM NOT A PLAYER!!! But these friggin christian pressume to judge me...I finnaly had enough and blew up on one of them the other day. I told her that she was no better than these fucking terrorists who kill babys in the name of religion. I told her that her type scares me, i said that her type gets my type killed every day in AMERICA of all places. I also told her that i am seeking a carreer in politics afrter i get back from IRAQ, and when i do ill make damn sure her doctrine of religous in toleration never makes it to the floor of congress....u want to know who is really the intolerant ones, Its Christians....how many people have died in the name of christ....a shit load....NEEDLESSLY!!!

correction MOST CHRISTIANS NOT ALL

and maybe the people here.. that are talkng about this church.. are quite possibly all those kinds of Christians.. that are not like the rest.. Cause.. I tell ya Spleen I love ya like a brother man.. Not in that .. "we are brothers in christ" type way either..

Christian, Pagan, Satanist.. it doesn't matter man.. to each their own I say.. Yeah.. I am a Christian.. but that doesn't mean I think it is my pace to fucking judge people, and treat them like shit.. and ya know what.. as a Christian i can say this.. Most Christians.. sicken me.

Yeah. What Hardcoregirl said.

*goes back to studying for exams*

Welp.. kinda knew eventually it would bite me in the ass.. lol.. never really fit in much of anywhere it's no shock I don't here. *shrugs*..

pCe..