• Speak out against the torture of POW's

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 1:07 pm**

Sorry for the political stuff again, but this issue really angers me as an American.

Recently released photos of American soldiers abusing and torturing Iraqi prisoners have shocked the world, provoking a global backlash against our country. As the Washington Post reports, "U.S. diplomats around the world have sent troubling cables back to Washington... with warnings that the graphic photographs... could seriously affect U.S. standing and broader foreign policy."1 Now more reports are coming out, and Amnesty International and other groups report that torture and human rights abuses of Iraqi detainees may be occurring routinely.

We all hope that these reports are untrue -- that this was indeed the isolated work of a few depraved individuals. But in the face of an escalating scandal in which our image is being deeply damaged, President Bush and Tony Blair need to demonstrate that they're going to clean house. Narrow military investigations don't cut it -- to the rest of the world, the current response looks like damage control and little more.

If we hope to win the battle for the "hearts and minds" of the citizens of the Middle East, it’s imperative that we respond to these charges head on. Join the call from Amnesty International and other groups for an independent, impartial and public investigation into all allegations of torture, at:

http://www.moveon.org/torture/

According to Amnesty International's website:

"Amnesty International has received frequent reports of torture or other ill-treatment by Coalition Forces during the past year. Detainees have reported being routinely subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment during arrest and detention. Many have told Amnesty International that they were tortured and ill-treated by US and UK troops during interrogation. Methods often reported include prolonged sleep deprivation; beatings; prolonged restraint in painful positions, sometimes combined with... prolonged hooding... Virtually none of the allegations of torture or ill-treatment has been adequately investigated by the authorities."2
Although a few U.S. troops already face punishment for the widely reported abuses, "the theory that these horrific acts were committed by a few renegade soldiers has been undercut by charges that the men and women shown in the pictures were actually working at the direction of military intelligence officers," according to the New York Times.3

With anti-American violence exploding in Iraq, and a deadline for handing over Iraqi sovereignty less than 2 months away, we need the support of the world community now more than ever. We especially need to regain the trust of the Iraqi people and their Arab neighbors, as quickly as possible.

We've got to support an immediate, independent, impartial and public investigation into all allegations of torture. To be credible, the investigation should be done by an international body, including representatives of Arab nations.

We've got to get to the bottom of this, and we've got to do it now.

Join our call, at:

http://www.moveon.org/torture/

Thank you.

It's ludicrous, that we live in a country which claims to abide by the rules of war and human rights, and yet this happens. When our soldiers are overseas, the represent the USA ... any actions or behaviour that these people engage in, they engage in on our behalf. We cannot expect that our soldiers will be treated humanely when captured by the enemy, if we're unwilling to abide by these rules ourselves. If anyone feels about this like I do, then go to http://moveon.org/torture and sign the petition. This will get sent on to the President and the Congress.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 2:07 pm**

i don't think the military, as a whole, should be blamed. i would like to think that the guilty parties are a very small percentage, which i know may be quite naive. i can't see any members of the military being so cruel and inhumane.

yes, such torture needs to be stopped, but i don't think that our country and its representatives should be viewed as evil. our country has done so much to help those in need.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 3:02 pm**

Hmmmmm....Stop torture...Nifty idea, yet, when those you are fighitng insist on using those techniques, why shoujld we hamstring those fighting on our behalf by refusing to allow them to retaliate in kind? By doing this, we are helping kill the morale of *our* soldiers over there...Reducing the ways they can respond only helps their enemies. War is not a simple matter of who has the biggest guns anymore...It is just as much psychological. Think about it. =)

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 3:03 pm**

Hmmm...My job while I was in the military was an interrogator. Never did I receive any education, training, or encouragement of physical abuse as a means of coercing prisoners. That being said, please note that I said pysical abuse. I see absolutely nothing wrong with demeaning, humiliating, or psychological mind games being used on proisoners if it is conducive to their interrogation. Good cop bad cop anyone? It does have its place.

The pictures that I have seen do not appear to me to be anything that would be used to support an interrogation, but I am not discounting the possibility. They look more like pictures taken by fucking jerks to send to their jerk friends back home or for jerk posterity. Guess what? Every cross segment of the population has its share of insensative jerks. The army is no different.

I'm sorry, but it is hard for me to get too worked up about how terribly upset the Iraqi population is at their people suffering from "abhorrent" humiliation...Could be worse. They could have been burned, butchered, mutilated and hung from a bridge.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 3:08 pm**

Well said.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 3:31 pm**

Onibubba wrote:I'm sorry, but it is hard for me to get too worked up about how terribly upset the Iraqi population is at their people suffering from "abhorrent" humiliation...Could be worse. They could have been burned, butchered, mutilated and hung from a bridge.

again, i agree with you
well put

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 4:08 pm**

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 4:14 pm**

i meant the military should NOT be blamed. the individuals should take full responsibility, the military should not be at fault for a few "bad eggs" so to speak.

so sorry. i support our military 100%

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 4:30 pm**

I'm not too sure about the authenticity of the UK photos. You've got to look at what looks staged and what looks real. In the US photos, the soldiers are posing with their prisoners, looking at the camera as if to say to the person viewing - I assume their friends and families- "Hey, look at this pile of knuckleheads!" or "Look at his little dick!"

The UK photos do not show the soldiers faces, but are all over the shoulder shots focusing on the mistreatement of the prisoner. Now why take a picture that does not give you bragging rights? I just don't buy it. They look staged to me.

They look like photos you would take to make a case of mistreatment, not photos you would take as your own little mementos of your time in the desert.

I do not doubt that abuses took place by the UK forces as well as the US, but I do not think the photos are reliable and I think that the paper that chose to run them without verifying their accuracy is just an example that it is not only our press that are a bunch of money grubbing tittilation pandering whores...I didn't articulate that very well, but that is my opinion until proven otherwise.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 5:03 pm**

I'm going to have to disagree with you here, kimmy. I support the individual Americans over there who are just doing their jobs 100%.

I support the collective actions of our military being in Iraq 0%.

That's right, I don't think our policy is correct, and I think the best support our troops could have is for us to support bringing ALL of them home NOW. We're not going to fix Iraq. It just isn't going to happen. All our presence there is doing now is killing more Iraqis, and more Americans.

As for these ugly incidents, unless the individuals in those photographs were acting wholly on their own, without any support from higher up (and I think that's highly unlikely) they aren't the ones who should be on trial - I think blame for this likely rests on some general who authorized the operation, if not on Bush - who should have to face this evidence at his impeachment trial.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 5:06 pm**

DarkVader wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with you here, kimmy. I support the individual Americans over there who are just doing their jobs 100%.

I support the collective actions of our military being in Iraq 0%.

That's right, I don't think our policy is correct, and I think the best support our troops could have is for us to support bringing ALL of them home NOW. We're not going to fix Iraq. It just isn't going to happen. All our presence there is doing now is killing more Iraqis, and more Americans.

As for these ugly incidents, unless the individuals in those photographs were acting wholly on their own, without any support from higher up (and I think that's highly unlikely) they aren't the ones who should be on trial - I think blame for this likely rests on some general who authorized the operation, if not on Bush - who should have to face this evidence at his impeachment trial.

also well put.
but ill raise the bar on that and say it SHOULD be bush's impeachment trial.but instead of admitting his sins and paying for them, he would rather start the rumor mill about the draft and avoid blame by getting it off peoples minds anyway he can
the man should be impeached and then jailed for crimes against humanity.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 7:42 pm**

i know this a little off the subject, but i like being from a country where i can speak my mind freely and not be shot, stoned to death or buried from the neck down in the desert where buzzards could peck out my eyes and eat at my flesh. although, i guess being female i would receive a different sort of punishment.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 7:59 pm**

Then, make sure ya pay attention before ya vote, girlie... We have lost more personal freedoms in the past ten years than in any other 100 before.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 8:24 pm**

DarkVader wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with you here, kimmy. I support the individual Americans over there who are just doing their jobs 100%.

I support the collective actions of our military being in Iraq 0%.

That's right, I don't think our policy is correct, and I think the best support our troops could have is for us to support bringing ALL of them home NOW. We're not going to fix Iraq. It just isn't going to happen. All our presence there is doing now is killing more Iraqis, and more Americans.

I agree with this 100% , I don't think anything has been accomplished aside from unnecessary killing. The people in Iraq have always been out of control, and sending our soldiers in there to get rid of these "military forces" really won't fix their problems

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2004 8:43 pm**

littlepockit wrote:i know this a little off the subject, but i like being from a country where i can speak my mind freely and not be shot, stoned to death or buried from the neck down in the desert where buzzards could peck out my eyes and eat at my flesh. although, i guess being female i would receive a different sort of punishment.

thats right girlie, in america we BUUUUUUUURN you.

*watched the grail last night...excuse my jestering*

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2004 1:19 am**

littlepockit wrote:i know this a little off the subject, but i like being from a country where i can speak my mind freely and not be shot, stoned to death or buried from the neck down in the desert where buzzards could peck out my eyes and eat at my flesh. although, i guess being female i would receive a different sort of punishment.

Yeah, but what about being from a country famed for our lust for violence, where a little old lady can walk out her front door and be the victim of a drive by shooting, and I can't walk alone in Tyson Park for fear of being raped? Are we that civilized by comparison?

I think part of the problem is the picture that the US incessantly paints of Iraqi culture.

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2004 2:50 am**

Wag the Dog ------- But I am a conspiracy theorist and usually am the first on to scream "puppet show" or "Wag the dog" or "TROLL"

hmmm wonder what bill is about to be slid through congress

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2004 1:48 pm**

The government/media tries to brainwash the American people...I mean....the way they portray the Iraqis is totally incorrect. They portray them as some sort of wild, violent people....that have violence "in their blood". They are people just like us.

There was NO FUCKING REASON for us to invade Iraq, other than the fact that there are people in our government that want global domination. THAT is what they are after. They are not trying to free the Iraqi people. They couldn't control Sadaam anymore, he was tired of their shit, so they formed a plan YEARS ago to invade Iraq, and replace him with someone they could control.

Paul Wolfowitz wrote a plan for global domination years ago. People in our government today SUPPORTED/HELPED PLAN THIS OUT! People like Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld.....Jeb Bush is also a member of PNAC....

And, this war is not just about oil.....Its about POWER. These people think that if we take over every part of the world, and mold it to their liking....it would mean safety for them. They want to christianize the entire world....get rid of the "heathen" muslims!

These people are scary. Iraq was their first move. When 9/11 happened, they seized the opportunity to take Iraq. Within hours after 9/11 happened, they were already planning a war with Iraq, demanding the CIA/FBI and whoever it took to drop everything else and find some sort of connection to Iraq...something...anything! They didn't care what! They didn't care who was really responsible....they just wanted Iraq!

Why are our troops still there? Because that will be our base of operations for world domination. We will invade the rest of the middle east through Iraq. They already know which country they are attacking next....It will be either Syria or Iran....

Does this shit not scare the hell out of anyone else? That our government is doing all this shit, and most people in America could care less? The American people could CARE LESS WHY other countries frown upon our actions! It seems noone wants to listen to all the things we've done....we only listen to what we are TOLD to listen to!!

Everyone else can see the truth! They see what our government is doing! And they laugh at us for being so daft! They think we're just idiots! And most of us are!

People will still vote for Bush, the terrorist, in the coming election. I bet if you ask these people why they voted for him......they would be like, well, he was president before, or maybe he took out Iraq for what they did on 9/11! YES! There are people who think that Iraq was responsible for the 9/11 attacks! And, they look at you like you are an idiot if you try to say otherwise!

:::breathes::::

Sorry.....just a little frustrated here.....I'm sick of our soldiers dying for NO GOOD REASON, other than to push PNAC's dreams of world domination.....

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2004 2:41 pm**

Don't get me wrong Abreeskye. I like conspiracy theory. It is good for the mind - gets the juices flowing and opens you up to ideas that may otherwise seem implausable.

I do not view Bush and Co. as the embodiment of evil. I do think that they subscribe to the idea that might is right, and often, that alone is enough. It is just not human nature to view yourself as evil. There are exceptions of course, but I do believe that Bush (and Co.) feels he is doing the right thing. Unfortuantely, he is not interested in any other opinions on what the right thing is. It is thinking like this that allows him to:

1) Side unabashedly with Israel because it it "right" regardles of how that is perceived by a Muslim world that already despises us.

2) Stand up against the rights of a woman in support of a foetus because it is "right" regardless of the fact that it is not his decision to make.

3) Remove a government from power because it is "right" regardless of whether the facts support going to war.

4) Wage war on concepts (terrorism, drug abuse, gay rights) because it is "right" regardless of how many freedoms are trampled in the process or if the reasoning is correct to begin with.

5) Force people to embrace his values becase they are "right" without acknowledging that other beliefs are just as valid.

All of these issues have at least 2 sides. To ignore what others think, and do what you want anyway is not evil, but it is short-sighted, obstinate, and not a good trait for a leader of a country.

Bush needs to be voted out of office simply because of who he is: a rash close minded decision maker who feels he is on the rightous path - a very dangerous individual.

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2004 11:06 pm**

TiredUnhappy wrote:
DarkVader wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with you here, kimmy. I support the individual Americans over there who are just doing their jobs 100%.

I support the collective actions of our military being in Iraq 0%.

That's right, I don't think our policy is correct, and I think the best support our troops could have is for us to support bringing ALL of them home NOW. We're not going to fix Iraq. It just isn't going to happen. All our presence there is doing now is killing more Iraqis, and more Americans.

I agree with this 100% , I don't think anything has been accomplished aside from unnecessary killing. The people in Iraq have always been out of control, and sending our soldiers in there to get rid of these "military forces" really won't fix their problems

im gonna respond to posts one on one, mostly cuz i dont feel like cutting and pasting all the things i want to respond to into one post, so sue me.
anyway -
if you dont think anything has been accomplished other than killing, talk to me at the coffee shop or sanctus and i can tell you what else is going on over there.