Patriot to be extended

[elasticwings]

Because the FBI needs more abilities to rob you of your civil rights...

http://news.com.com/2061-10789_3-5736302.html?part=rss&tag=5736302&subj=news

Senate panel votes to expand Patriot Act

Forget scaling back the Patriot Act.

Instead, the controversial post-9/11 law would be expanded to give the FBI new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval, according to a vote late Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence committee.

The final text of the Senate Intelligence committee's amendments was not immediately available (here's a draft dated last month), and reporters were barred from the secret session during which the vote was held.

But the proposal appears to grant the FBI more power to seek information from banks, hospitals, libraries, and so on through "administrative subpoenas" without prior judicial oversight. The subpoenas are only supposed to be used for terrorism or clandestine intelligence cases.

One other detail: the FBI may designate that the subpoenas are secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison (and five years if the disclosure is deemed to "obstruct an investigation.")

In testimony in April, FBI director Robert Mueller said: "The administrative subpoena power would be a valuable complement to (existing) tools and provide added efficiency to the FBI's ability to investigate and disrupt terrorism operations and our intelligence gathering efforts."

The ACLU denounced the Senate Intelligence committee's vote. "In a move antithetical to our Constitution, the new 'administrative subpoena' authority would let the FBI write and approve its own search orders for intelligence investigations, without prior judicial approval," the group said in a statement. "Americans have a reasonable expectation that their federal government will not gather records about their health, their wealth and the transactions of their daily life without probable cause of a crime and without a court order."

In theory, the expand-the-Patriot-Act bill now goes to the Senate floor for a vote. But some negotiations are likely to take place between the Intelligence and Judiciary committee, and that could affect the final form of the legislation.

[karmakaze]

Grrrrrr

[Sir Diddimus]

"So this is how liberty dies..... with Thunderous applause...."

[The Stormstress]

I'v been faxing & e-mailing over this issue like mad 4 awhile ... 4 n-e nterested partiez, http://www.moveon.org/front/ & http://www.aclu.org/ r just 2 ov several organizationz that get nvolved & can help keep u upd8ed on many such issuez ...

[junkie christ]

i agree with sir D
i can hear the imperial march.

[Scorptrio]

The very first act of American Freedom was to overthrow a corrupt, unrepresentative and totalitarian government. The time is long past due for this to happen again. What is needed here is for millions upon millions of Americans to march on Washington DC to occupy every street and building until a Constitutional Republic is restored and the fascists who are now in control are overthrown.

Of the people, by the people and for the people.

[judas gnb]

I dont mean to start anything by posting this.But the way everybody talks you make it seem as though we live in North Korea or China.In that we have no freedom to say what we want or do what we want.Hi im Dustin and im a proud american who wants Patriot Act to be kept in place.Ok now ready to be jumped on for what i belaave.

[Scorptrio]

Security Advisory Board Releases Terror Alert Chart
By City Staff

The City Security Advisory Board just released a new Terror Alert Chart for citizens today. In a press conference this morning at City Hall, Security Officials say the chart is expected to speed up communications about existing threat levels throughout the city.



"When we know a terrorist act is likely inside the city, these colors will allow our Security Services to warn large numbers of citizens quickly," said City Spokeswoman Kristina Bryans.
"But the real beauty of the color system is that we can broadcast danger levels without revealing important sources and information which could jeopardize ongoing investigations or counter-terrorist operations," said Bryans.
The terror alert press conference also attracted a small group of protestors who shouted anti-security slogans at Bryans and demanded the return of human rights and civil liberty protections at City Hall.
"Those who would sacrifice their liberty at the altar of security don't deserve to be free," shouted Shay Thompson, leader of the Civil Liberties Underground Enterprise, or C.L.U.E. "Get a CLUE Bryans! You tell us Morpheus is dead, so why are you still rolling out terror policies which steal our freedom and violate our civil rights!" demanded Thompson.
The consummate veteran, Kristina Bryans was unruffled by the abrupt demonstrations. "Morpheus is indeed dead, but we must remain vigilant. His attacks on the city were one of the main reasons this chart was created," Bryans said. "Yet our highest duty to the citizens of this great city is to protect them from terrorist attacks. And although Morpheus is no more, his Lieutenants are still at large and continue to probe our defenses for weaknesses."
Thompson shouted, "The Terror Alert Chart colors the truth with lies!"

[elasticwings]

I dont mean to start anything by posting this.But the way everybody talks you make it seem as though we live in North Korea or China.In that we have no freedom to say what we want or do what we want.Hi im Dustin and im a proud american who wants Patriot Act to be kept in place.Ok now ready to be jumped on for what i belaave.

Okay, just curious. Do you actually know what the Patriot Act does? Let me go ahead and say, it pretty much gives the FBI the right to arrest people on the basis that they believe they are terrorist. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for terrorists being arrested and removed before they can cause any damage. The big problem with this is that they could arrest people for being a terrorist already. What the Patriot Act does is give them the ability to arrest them and hold them for an indefinite amount of time without the right to a speedy trial or even telling them why they were arrested. Now doesn't this seem to conflict with another very well known and important law? Oh wait here it is. It's one of the Bill of Rights amendments that our wonderful fore fathers layed out for us to protect us against something horrible like this.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Now think about this for a minute. What and how much evidence does the FBI need to declare that you are a terrorist and jail you without trial for however long they deem necessary. Well, nobody really knows. Considering that with this new addition, anybody they subpoena can be jailed themselves for letting somebody know that they were. It also gives them the ability to do this without a judge's approval. This seems like it also crosses the line over top of another one of the Bill of Rights. This time it's Amendment number 4.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

To sum my view up, I love living in America myself. A big part of the reason why I love living in America as opposed to another country is that we have the Bill of Rights. Our forefathers really put the people first when they created the constitution. This probably is because they themselves were people that were tired of serving under the Kings and Queens of England that did not have to worry about the people because they were born into royalty. The Bill of Rights were the first set of amendments to the constitution for a reason. Personally, I would like to keep those rights. Without them, we are no different than alot of other countries as far as rights of the people go.

[judas gnb]

Yea i know all the details and this act is really to speed up processes not slow them down.The FBI isnt out to randomly arrest people who they this are emenies of the state.If they lock you because they think your a terrorist there is probley a good chance you are and they would have the proof to show for it

[elasticwings]

We do not know that. This isn't the first time there has been a scare like this. The first time it was the communist scare. People were definitely picked out wrong in that case.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/mccarthyism.html

Throughout the 1940s and 1950s America was overwhelmed with concerns about the threat of communism growing in Eastern Europe and China. Capitalizing on those concerns, a young Senator named Joseph McCarthy made a public accusation that more than two hundred "card-carrying" communists had infiltrated the United States government. Though eventually his accusations were proven to be untrue, and he was censured by the Senate for unbecoming conduct, his zealous campaigning ushered in one of the most repressive times in 20th-century American politics.

While the House Un-American Activities Committee had been formed in 1938 as an anti-Communist organ, McCarthy’s accusations heightened the political tensions of the times. Known as McCarthyism, the paranoid hunt for infiltrators was notoriously difficult on writers and entertainers, many of whom were labeled communist sympathizers and were unable to continue working. Some had their passports taken away, while others were jailed for refusing to give the names of other communists. The trials, which were well publicized, could often destroy a career with a single unsubstantiated accusation. Among those well-known artists accused of communist sympathies or called before the committee were Dashiell Hammett, Waldo Salt, Lillian Hellman, Lena Horne, Paul Robeson, Arthur Miller, Aaron Copland, Leonard Bernstein, Charlie Chaplin and Group Theatre members Clifford Odets, Elia Kazan, and Stella Adler. In all, three hundred and twenty artists were blacklisted, and for many of them this meant the end of exceptional and promising careers.

During this time there were few in the press willing to stand up against McCarthy and the anti-Communist machine. Among those few were comedian Mort Sahl, and journalist Edward R. Murrow, whose strong criticisms of McCarthy are often cited as playing an important role in his eventual removal from power. By 1954, the fervor had died down and many actors and writers were able to return to work. Though relatively short, these proceedings remain one of the most shameful moments in modern U.S. history.

[4X541N7]

I dont mean to start anything by posting this.But the way everybody talks you make it seem as though we live in North Korea or China.In that we have no freedom to say what we want or do what we want.Hi im Dustin and im a proud american who wants Patriot Act to be kept in place.Ok now ready to be jumped on for what i belaave.

Hey, Dustin...I've argued with you in the past...I don't expect to change your beliefs...Nor, I'm sure, do you expect to change mine...But, you're right...We don't live in a country like N. Korea or China...But...We're heading that way...Very quickly...This isn't me blaming Republicians or Democrates, or any other allignment in the United States machine...I'm blaming the machine itself...As a public...As individuals...We feel powerless...The government is a large, structured construct...That has every aspect of our lives gripped within it's clawed, rusted grasp...I agree with Scorptrio...(i.e. Read Scorp's post^)...Oh, how the seige works wonders...Non-violent protest...OF THE MILLIONS...I'd be willing to help organize this...Check out freethoughtarmy (The website in my profile), for more detail...I personally think, Dustin, that while I admire you patriotism...I loathe your blindness to the corruption...The IS a excellent medium...I personally love this country...But...Not the government...Don't make me quote Albert Einstein...lol...

[judas gnb]

Let me ask you this. Do you have a fear or a suspicion that at some point your government will use the features of the Patriot Act to round up people that have nothing to do with any suspicion whatsoever of terrorism? I know a lot of people have your fear; a lot of people share your concern about it.Do you think that it's not being talked about enough, though, in conservative circles and maybe intellectually analyzed? No, hardly. It's all over the place. If you go to the right conservative places you'll find there's a huge argument about this among conservatives, particularly the conservative elites and the conservative intellectuals. There's always an argument among our people over who's the smartest person in the room and they're always trying to outsmart each other with the fanciest smartest most obscure argument. The fact is these arguments are taking place within the conservative movement I think quite a lot. You have to look, though, at the success rate. Look it, has there been another attack on this country from within since the Patriot Act was authorized?

Well, yeah, you know, let me tell you something. There's hypocrisy on both sides of this because I'm going to tell you something. You have plenty of liberals out there who are all for the cops raiding their political enemies, they're all for the cops doing whatever they have to do to get whatever goods they want on their political enemies. And yet the Patriot Act comes, oh, you can't do it, it's an invasion of privacy. And yet in some cases they don't care about other people's privacy. Privacy is irrelevant to them depending on what the target is. So both sides of this, I wouldn't suggest that there's one side to this that's pure and one side that's not. At any rate, it's a tough call for a lot of people. But you really can't argue with the success rate and I, frankly, in this country don't know too many people, I don't know of anybody who's been rounded up that is not under genuine suspicion about whom there is not a sufficient body of evidence to justify that suspicion. I don't know of a rampant number of innocent people that have been rounded up under whatever auspices under the Patriot Act.

At the end of this year, 16 critical provisions of the Patriot Act are scheduled to expire. Some people call these sunset provisions. It's a good name, because letting those provisions expire would leave law enforcement in the dark. All 16 provisions are practical, important, and they are constitutional. Congress needs to renew them all, and this time Congress needs to make the provisions permanent.
There we go thats what i could find on this subject from my point of view.

[elasticwings]

It's not that I have a fear of this happening. I believe I have truly lost rights more than I believe that it has stopped a terrorist attack. To be honest, this bill was pushed through and has been allowed by using the fear of terrorist attacks to attempt to justify its existence. I think the FBI and other government branches already had more than enough ability within current laws to detect and prevent terrorist attacks. Did you have the fear of a terrorist attack prior to the 911 attack? I know I sure as hell did not. But now, I do worry about what gets pushed out into law under the guise of securing the US from terrorist attacks. Is it not strange that a big expansion on the Patriot Act was passed before on the day of Saddam Hussein's capture? I definitely do not believe it was coincidental timing seeing as how it was signed on a Saturday and the last time the president signed a bill on a Saturday was over a year prior when he signed a spending bill to prevent the shutdown of the federal government on the following Monday. This is not a matter of conservative vs. liberal either.

http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/11356091.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

Unlikely allies oppose Patriot Act provisions
Conservative groups, ACLU push for checks and balances
By Carl Chancellor
Beacon Journal staff writer

Political battles at times result in strange alliances. A case in point is what on the surface appears to be the most unlikely of coalitions -- Patriots to Restore Checks and Balances.

The Washington, D.C., group, headed by former congressman Bob Barr, a conservative Republican from Georgia, was formed to take on the Patriot Act.

Joining forces with the conservative Barr are the liberal American Civil Liberties Union and an array of right-leaning groups, from such the American Conservative Union and Americans for Tax Reform to the Free Congress Foundation and Gun Owners of America.

``I'm sure it seems like a group of unusual allies but we are united in our shared concern over the lack of judicial oversight... the Patriot Act flies in the face of the concept of checks and balances,'' said Carrie Davis, staff attorney with the ACLU of Ohio.

``We have our differences, but what we share in common is protection of constitutional rights. That is not a partisan issue,'' continued Davis.

Hurriedly pushed through Congress with little discussion in the wake of Sept. 11, the Patriot Act is a massive anti-terrorism bill that gave the government sweeping new surveillance and prosecutorial powers to be used against suspected terrorists.

At the time, lawmakers expressed little opposition to the bill, which was signed into law in October 2001.

But in the years since, groups and individuals across the political spectrum have been vocal in their concern that civil liberties and privacy rights have been trampled by the quickly passed Patriot Act.

Now, the law has returned to the spotlight.

[4X541N7]

Let me ask you this. Do you have a fear or a suspicion that at some point your government will use the features of the Patriot Act to round up people that have nothing to do with any suspicion whatsoever of terrorism? I know a lot of people have your fear; a lot of people share your concern about it.Do you think that it's not being talked about enough, though, in conservative circles and maybe intellectually analyzed? No, hardly. It's all over the place. If you go to the right conservative places you'll find there's a huge argument about this among conservatives, particularly the conservative elites and the conservative intellectuals. There's always an argument among our people over who's the smartest person in the room and they're always trying to outsmart each other with the fanciest smartest most obscure argument. The fact is these arguments are taking place within the conservative movement I think quite a lot. You have to look, though, at the success rate. Look it, has there been another attack on this country from within since the Patriot Act was authorized?

Well, yeah, you know, let me tell you something. There's hypocrisy on both sides of this because I'm going to tell you something. You have plenty of liberals out there who are all for the cops raiding their political enemies, they're all for the cops doing whatever they have to do to get whatever goods they want on their political enemies. And yet the Patriot Act comes, oh, you can't do it, it's an invasion of privacy. And yet in some cases they don't care about other people's privacy. Privacy is irrelevant to them depending on what the target is. So both sides of this, I wouldn't suggest that there's one side to this that's pure and one side that's not. At any rate, it's a tough call for a lot of people. But you really can't argue with the success rate and I, frankly, in this country don't know too many people, I don't know of anybody who's been rounded up that is not under genuine suspicion about whom there is not a sufficient body of evidence to justify that suspicion. I don't know of a rampant number of innocent people that have been rounded up under whatever auspices under the Patriot Act.

At the end of this year, 16 critical provisions of the Patriot Act are scheduled to expire. Some people call these sunset provisions. It's a good name, because letting those provisions expire would leave law enforcement in the dark. All 16 provisions are practical, important, and they are constitutional. Congress needs to renew them all, and this time Congress needs to make the provisions permanent.
There we go thats what i could find on this subject from my point of view.

I will say this...Before ever touching this discussion...

I am neither liberal...Nor conservative...I'm an neither Democrate, nor Republican...I am a patriot...& that's all that matters...

With that said...I am not afraid of what could/will happen due to the Patriot Acts...I'm afraid of the intentions, & agendas of the people who push it...Liberal, Conservative, Democrate, Republican...These words do not effect me as a United States citizen...But there are two words that I'll clutch to, as long as there is a flag in the breeze..."Civil Liberties"...I DO know someone who spent 6 months in a Nashville jail...Without the right to call his family, friends, or even a lawyer...When his family reported him missing...The police that investigated had 'no idea'...Though, with a quick search, & a few phone calls...There's no way they could have been ignorant to the fact that he was being detained...All his family knew...Was that he was missing...& the police, & the media...Where not helping in the slightest...Now, this being a fact...After those 6 months, when he was released...You know what he recieved as compensation?...A spot on a black list...Now, would you like to know why he was detained?...Because his family is from a place in Jordan, in which there is a 'known' terrorist cell...& he visited this place once a year...Yeah...That's it...Now, for my real beef with the Patriot Acts...

Did you know...That the things that I've said on this board alone, according to the US Government, could label me as a 'terrorist'...Hell...For the one post that Scorptrio just made...He could be detained, without legal representation...For unaccounted amounts of time...Does this sound like 'Freedom' to you...I'm not going to get started on 'Freedom of speech, Press' blahblahblah...I'm going in a different direction...You made the statement that we're all acting like this is China, or N. Korea...Well...Yes...In a way, I'm sure we are...Here's my justification of that...In places like those...You could be arrested, or even killed for what you believe in...That's why they lack 'Freedom' in most peoples eyes, is it not?...Now, look at the point I just made about Mine, & Scorp's arrestable offences...Do you at least see the similarities?...I don't think that we need to overthrow the government, per si...But, there do need to be some corrections...There need to be some additions, if they want the kind of power that they seek...I'm not saying..."Fuck Attority...Blow it all up..."...No...Fuck that...I'm saying that there needs to be a new structure...The design is good..But the machine is wearing down it's gears...& needs to be fixed...

The first of two low-brow comparisons...

If you car starts to overheat...Do you blow it up, & buy a new one...Sometimes...Yes...But most of the time...No...You fix you thermostat, or Water Pump, or whatnot...& go about your way...Good as new...Our government is not in a state beyond repair, yet...But, if somethings aren't changed...We'll all be fuct...

Second low-brow comparison...

Ever read 1984...I know that this relation has been driven into the ground...But it's true...You cannot take away everyone civil liberties, in the name of safety...Yes, I like being safe...No, I don't want a plane to fly into my house...Or recieve anthrax in the mail...But, I'd also like to relax at home...& not wonder if that black car outside...Is spying on me...Tapping my phones...Tear gas, & crosshairs...

Dustin...I'm not trying to sway you...In any way...Just think about what I've said...If you still don't agree...So be it...But seriously THINK about what I've said...OK...Deal?

[karmakaze]

i don't care what the fuck is going on in the world. The constitution was written to protect certain rights. Rights that i appreciate. And for no reason at all am i ok with those rights being revoked. Period. no if, thanes, or buts. Whether said rights directly affect me or not does not matter. They are still everyone’s rights. And the government has no right or justification for their removal.

i would rather risk dieing from a hijacked jetliner than live with restricted personal rights.

There is no good that can come from the patriot acts. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.

[Mercurygriffin]

Humans for the most part are born with free will.

Some give up that free will. Their choice. And level.
Some take control of others free will.
Some rebel. Fight the system. Take it back.
Some just say fuck you and keep it in the first place.
Some don't even know that they have it.

The questions are:
Which one are you?
Are you happy with that?
Do you have the right to press that ideology on others?
Do you care?

Just asking.

[Scorptrio]

Read my post very carefully. I'm advocating overthrowing the FASCISTS (as defined by Harvard Law School and applied to those who meet those criteria) within the government and restoring a Constitutional Republic under the will of the people, by a peaceful mandate of the people. This is not treason, it is upholding the oath to protect the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

[Mother Mo]

Ah, politics. Y'all have fun with that! *skips away*

[iblis]

The very first act of American Freedom was to overthrow a corrupt, unrepresentative and totalitarian government. The time is long past due for this to happen again. What is needed here is for millions upon millions of Americans to march on Washington DC to occupy every street and building until a Constitutional Republic is restored and the fascists who are now in control are overthrown.

Of the people, by the people and for the people.

Yes. Let the unwashed masses do the bidding of the bidding of a few, select individuals.

Wait. Isn't that what's happening already?

Doh!