the "sin" of rebellion (no links this time,i prom

junkie christ · Post by **junkie christ** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:18 am

man heres a good quasi-religious question that was posed to me earlier today......:excuse my spelling im pretty wasted::
my grandma says all these fucked up religious statements but this one was really weird.
ahem.
dying your hair, piercings, strange goatees, tattoos.....
they work so quietly. they seem like small social things... but every piece of you gets pushed to rebel at some point in life. when the body is altered from the norms around it, it gets more prone to seek its "unique" self and begins rebelling against other things. this rebellion by nature reflects lucifer rebelling against god.......
your falling to the devil when these things occur.
now thats really extreme, but by the christian by-laws (which i on some level agree with) rebellion (which spawned from spite and jealous rage) is behind the essence of the devil......
so at what point does trying to be an individual begin to resonate as sin? is it the actions and the words or could it be (by nature of definition) rebelling AS a sin itself..... trying to break on some level to a greater layer of sin?
i know my answer (the whole theory is bullshit extremitist held by old GOP housewives) but what do others see in this? how is it possible to draw these lines and can you see any logic in it? or vise versa if you i suppose.......
man im REALLY fucked up. i hope this makes sense

blindboy · Post by **blindboy** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:23 am

I don't believe in any sort of highger power at all, so the whole concept of the flesh rebelling due to the influence of the devil is ridiculous. Mostly though one of the key reasons I believe religion was even invented and pushed was to control people. So naturally individuality is shunned by most religions.

"Ezekiel 34:31 You are my sheep, the sheep of my pasture and I am your God, says the Lord GOD."

Think about it.

junkie christ · Post by **junkie christ** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:26 am

ridiculous i agree, im just trying to find the logic

blindboy · Post by **blindboy** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:46 am

Logic and religion seldom go together.
To be religious you have to have faith that there is a god or some kind of spiritual presense. Faith and logic just do not mix.

JaNell · Post by **JaNell** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:44 am

My mom has this thing about hair. As in, insisting that my oldest son get his hair cut like a "real man".

Now, last time I checked, the male parts aren't anywhere near the head, and as for being a Man, that's more in how a male acts than anything genetic and certainly unrelated to hair length.

I keep telling her that if she can't tell the differance by now without looking at the hair length and clothing, she's got some serious problems.

There's also that bit that if you believe in God, then you beleive that God made us as we are, so isn't it disrespectful to cut your hair or shave, at all? I mean, God MUST have meant men to have long hair and beards, or why did He make people like that? :twisted:

div · Post by **div** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:59 am

hypocritical. just another way to say "religion".

Individuality is a sin. Thinking for yourself is a sin. "The Bible" in and of itself has some pretty good ideas in it, but taken as a whole, in context with modern religon, it's nothing more than a brainwashing tool. Just another type of mold for the un-thinking masses to attempt to force themselves into.

Oh, and on the subject of hair (a very personal issue for me)... Have you ever noticed how religion hates being questioned in a logical manner? If men are "supposed" to have short hair, why is long hair on men so prevelent in the bible?

The Fallen · Post by **The Fallen** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:05 am

1Cor 6:20 "your body is a temple..." is probably the basis behind the objection of tats, piercings ect. but there is also this...
1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Therefore, to rebel is to sin and to sin is to rebel. Rebellion, however, is an even more serious term than sin, however, because it involves a deliberate action of the WILL.
Which of course contravenes against...

blindboy wrote:"Ezekiel 34:31 You are my sheep, the sheep of my pasture and I am your God, says the Lord GOD."

So basically thats the whole schpiel as I see it. You gotta be a meek little sheep, no free will, no choosing what you want, no individuality because hell thats vanity/pride one of the seven deadly sins...

But what I really think, fuck that. Everyone has Free Will, everyone makes their own destiny, preordain this
:fuckoff:

teehee

iblis · Post by **iblis** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:27 am

I don't believe in God or religion itself in the traditional sense. So the only way I can think to explain this interesting, if flawed, point of view is that she's relying far too heavily on symbolism.

Which is the flaw of most Judeo-Christian religions, as far as I'm concerned. They're taught to find symbolism within their "teachings", but then hammered by some "authority" figure or another that their own "personal" symbols should be kept within certain limits.

It's a Catch-22. "The Great Paradox of Theology", you might call it.

Mind you, if you take Christian (or almost any other religion's) teachings word for word, you wind up grabbing an AR-10 and begin taking out the "evil sinners".

Personally, I don't think that "sin" exists, outside of the conscience and mind of the individual. We act. Our actions have consequences. If our actions don't hurt anyone, then there's absolutely no problem with said action.

In this case, I have to agree with the Wiccan Rede, "[...] an it harm none, do as ye will."

My question is, "Why do people find this simple concept so fucking difficult to grasp?"

Rebellion, on the other hand, does exist. And I'm pretty sure that some higher-ups decided a long time ago that rebellion would be the worst thing that could influence the possible outcome of their favorite belief structure. After all, as blindboy already quoted via Ezekiel 34:31, they seem to want their followers to live by their rules, without question or pause.

Much like sheep. :sheepstrip:

And to myself and others like me, sheep are food. :mrgreen:

The Fallen · Post by **The Fallen** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:06 am

iblis wrote:you wind up grabbing an AR-10 and begin taking out the "evil sinners".

Steyr AUG A1 with 40 mm grenade launcher *purr* nothing but the best for taking out heathens

iblis wrote:And to myself and others like me, sheep are food.

I've been dying to have lamb for ages now...

Nexxus23 · Post by **Nexxus23** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:26 am

Personally, I'm Atheist. But I went to school for this, so lemme try to put it in a nutshell.

Christianity has a sliding scale of sin, which is fully subjective according to sect, denomination, and personal preconceived beliefs. This sliding scale changes dramatically between these 3 things.

To some, dancing is a sin, as is drinking, masturbating, and listening to non-Christian music.

To others, the only sins are breaking the 10 Commandments as they are literally written.

The basic premise of Christianity is to follow the path of Jesus and to worship him. Beyond that it really is entirely relative according to your sect/denomination.

Rebellion against social norms is not, according to Biblical texts, a sin. That belief is found mainly in more conservative fundamentalist sects, and is mainly founded on poor or uneducated interpretations of scripture. (Along w/ the witchcraft quote that Fallen quoted above- the word "witchcraft" is an incorrect translation, the actual word was "poisoner")

Your best bet, honestly, is to find yourself a good quiet place and read the Bible on your own. Every Christian I have ever talked to has said god speaks through the Bible- whatever message there is for you is waiting in your scriptures. No one else can tell you what god wants- you're the only one who can do that.

Good luck. :mrgreen:

*:Edit:* Blindboy, you're so right. Logic and religion don't usually mix...

briarus · Post by **briarus** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:01 am

your not a rebel if you win.

the bible can be mind numbingly boring, also which ver. of bible you read can change the meaning you get from it. like the whole jesus going to hell bit conveniantly taken out of king james (i personnaly think christ would hve cursed bullets over a king of man rewritting the "word of god"

yea and jesus was kind of a rebel too (against the hebrew establishment, roman empire, etc.etc...

junkie christ · Post by **junkie christ** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:28 pm

good answers, and i have to agree, i think christ was a total rebel. for that matter, any of his REAL followers are too cuz its a total different world than the forms of christianity that dominate our society.......
organized religion does become opiate of the masses in the end EVERY TIME. so dont organize it..........
good insight.
im still wondering what the resonance point of sin to rebellion is ......

iblis · Post by **iblis** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:09 pm

I find it simultaneously interesting, confusing, and annoying that most Christians don't follow the teachings of Christ.

That, to me, is like saying "I believe in God," and then remarking about how there is no God.

The Stormstress · Post by **The Stormstress** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:18 pm

So, this meanz I'm not just a rebel... I am sin, itself?! Cool!:twisted:

Mother Mo · Post by **Mother Mo** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:16 am

Rebellion in and of itself is far from sinful, in my opinion. Rebellion is nature's way of making sure we're not too tightly knit, if you know what I mean.

For example, in the primitive times, humans were grouped in clans. In these small communities, were several generations of people all related to one another. As the young people grew older & their instincts started to mature, they would naturally come into conflict with their elders. The young men would challenge the older ones & things would get ugly, and the young men would soon be on their way to life outside the clan (or death).

This was a genetic necessity, since staying with their original family would eventually lead to incestual coupling and therefore, the weakening of the gene pool. The rebellious nature led the young people to find there own environments where they could express themselves and do things their own way, and thereby start their own families, clans, or communities.

Society as a whole benefits greatly from rebellion. If we kept things the same all the time, cultures and people would stagnate & die. It was rebels long ago and far away who thought that washing yourself may make you healthier. Before that it was considered terribly bad luck to wash more frequently than a few times per year. I believe it was Gwenivere who bragged that she'd only submitted to two baths in her lifetime (at birth & just before her marriage).

It took rebels to make changes long ago to traditions such as human sacrifice, lawful murder of wives, & exposure of unwanted infants to the elements. Then there were those wacky rebels who started that whole Revolutionary War thingie, and that whole abolition of slavery stuff. But, I guess they're all in hell now. :roll:

Tell Grandma, that not every type of rebellion is bad. There have been some very useful ones, and few tattoos or piercings aren't going let lose the evil one himself. Jesus Christ, Martin Luther, Abe Lincoln, & Ghandi were rebels too, Grandma. They were still good sons, fathers, and people.

Oh yeah, wasn't Mary (like other married women of her day) tattooed as well? I've heard that from a few sources.

(Mo now steps off her soap box & goes back into her hobbit hole.)

jenna · Post by **jenna** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:30 pm

My theory on religion and rebellion comes a lot from an article i read a few years ago in an indie magazine called Lilith, which is a Jewish-Feminist publication. In this article it was clarified that the entire line of the Hebrew people, and therefore Christians, was dependent on a rebellious teenage girl named Rebekah. She went to the well one day to get water for her family, and met up with a guy at the well. The guy at the well noticed her PIERCED NOSE, and offered her a gold nose ring if she'd travel to his homeland with him to hook up with some guy named Issac. Rebekah really liked the nose ring and thought these guys would be cool to hang with so she ran off from home and married Issac. The entire ancestral line beyond Abraham of the religions is dependent on the fact the a fiesty teenage girl with a pierced nose ran away from home to marry a guy she had never met. So, both body mod and going against norms have historically been an accepted part of the faith, and anyone saying other wise and that G_d frowns on body mod., just hasn't read their Torah or Old Testament depending on which faith they are.
As far as Christianity goes, Jesus was pretty rebelious himself, as has already been said on here.

junkie christ · Post by **junkie christ** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 8:25 pm

ive always viewed the true essence of christianty and christians as EXTREMELY rebellious in way.
i mean his teachings and lifestyle were MEGA against the grain.
i think this is why the older i get the more i respect him. the things he had to say and did were totally the oppposite of most people did or naturally tend to do but they are all insightful and enlightening in a way... why he gets such a bad rap because people do horrible shit in his name never makes sense. i think the people really admantly against christ should evaluate the differences between the people and the man.......

Nemesis · Post by **Nemesis** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:30 am