In the spirit of this...
http://www.angelsofdisruption.com/marilynmanson/
What I figure to be a well written peice about the tension between Marilyn Manson fans and goths. Being a fan of the band myself I'm easily partial to younger people who like this band.
Just thoughtfull poses for the rest of us..
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Edit...Ok ok the whole site is nice but I sort of wanted to showcase one paticlular article. Gronk.
Oh well...here it is... pull up a chair.
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The Beautiful People
What is goth anyway?
I have yet to see any two people give the same answer to this question. So here is yet another probably-misguided shot.
As far as I can tell, there are three possible meanings of "gothic":
* gothic in the academic sense
* gothic in the "80s, narrow, original sense
* gothic in the "90s, broad, "corrupted" sense
Gothic in the academic sense refers to a Germanic people and the architecture (pointed arches, steep roofs, etc.) that came to be associated with them from the 12th to 16th centuries. It also refers to a genre of literature which often revolves around supernatural forces, mysterious goings-on, death and human evil. (The designation "gothic" was due to the setting of such novels in old gothic castles, mansions, churches, etc. as with Bram Stoker's Dracula or Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.) Few subcultural people use the word this way, so I will disregard it for our purposes and concentrate on the other two.
Gothic in the "80s, narrow, original sense is somewhat related to gothic literature. During the early "80s, a subcultural style emerged which involved the following attributes: (Note that I am not saying that all gothic people are into all of these things, or that this is the sum total of goth, etc.)
Appearance:
* tight black clothing, romantic styled; victorian or medieval, or in some cases fetish. Corsets, black fishnet tights, gloves, boots, pirate/poet/peasant shirts, etc.
* extreme make-up, particularly heavy black eyeliner, on men as well as women. Creative hairstyles, often involving a lot of hairspray, teasing and/or backcombing.
* emphasis on the femininity of both genders
Music:
* emerged from death rock, which in turn emerged from punk.
* dark, generally sorrowful lyrics on such themes as love, death, suffering, spiritual introspection, etc. Sometimes with social or political implications, but approached in a more personal/indirect way than in most other kinds of music.
* various musical aspects, but generally a particular sound of distorted-yet-not-loud guitar, pounding drums, synthesizer use, organ... sometimes overlapped with industrial to incorporate various "primitive" sounds and further distortion... or on the other hand, droney ethereal goth with no drum beat. In any case, a dark sound, but never in a loud, testosterone-drenched way.
Some bands (this is REALLY basic):
* Well-known bands: Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Siouxie and the Banshees, The Cure, The Cult
* "80s bands: The Mission, The March Violets, The Virgin Prunes, Alien Sex Fiend, Fields of the Nephilim
* Somewhat newer bands: Switchblade Symphony, London After Midnight, Children on Stun, Big Electric Cat, Two Witches
* Ethereal bands: Black Tape for a Blue Girl, Love Spirals Downwards, Lycia, Soul Whirling Somewhere, almost everything else on the label Projekt
* And let us not forget...: Christian Death, Shadow Project, Eva O, Gitane Demone and anything else associated with Rozz Williams and "The Family"
* Not quite goth but many goth people like it: David Bowie, the Velvet Underground, Miranda Sex Garden, Medieval Baebes, Die Form
Attitude: (I definitely do not want to give the impression that the whole scene is like this but here are some recurring themes I've noticed)
* Romantic inclinations, possibly including tendency to obsess over finding "the one", or at the other extreme, the tragic "heart of stone" sensation, apathy and aloofness.
* Morbid fascination with death--or undeath--perhaps expectations of any early death, e.g. by suicide
* Alienation from the "normal" world
* Preference for the night
* Interest in alternative religions and/or the occult (vampires, ghosts, angels and demons, tarot cards, etc.), and/or in alternate sexualities (especially bisexuality and/or BDSM)
* Artistic tendencies of some sort - poetry, painting, drawing, composing music, and/or general appreciation of the arts
Gothic in the "90s, broad, "corrupted" sense came into being mostly after 1994, upon the release of the movie "the Crow" and the growing popularity of the band NIN (followed afterward by Manson's own rise to fame). Many of the people who were gothic in the "80s find that in the "90s, people are misusing the word (as originally intended) to an alarming extent. As far as I can tell, the "90s added the following elements to goth:
* While "The Crow" may "count" as appreciably gothic given its aesthetic and connections to Joy Division, "The Crow" movie is thought by many old-school goths to have caused some confusion. e.g. the make-up style is more exaggerated than what one sometimes sees in the older subculture, as far as I know, and Brandon Lee is more "masculine" looking than what many old-school goths may hold as the male ideal. Also, while some of the bands on the soundtrack, such as the Cure, are gothic, others, such as Rage Against the Machine, are not, and promoting the movie as "gothic" when it has such a soundtrack causes the misconception that all the bands on the soundtrack are gothic.
* NIN, Marilyn Manson, Type O Negative and Tool, followed later by White Zombie, Korn and Orgy. In some cases I understand why the individuals and bands are thought gothic, i.e. they have the make-up, the "stylish" black clothes, refer to the undead a lot, etc., even though they depart from the "older" gothic in that they are more aggressive and less romantic. In the case of Korn and Slipknot, it is a mystery to me as to why someone would think them gothic when there is a separate term for this genre of music, "nu metal".
* Some metal (especially black metal) can be seen as gothic in that it incorporates gothic lyrical or musical elements. (sadness and despair, romanticism, the occult, etc.) Metal bands most often put in this category are Cradle of Filth, My Dying Bride, Theatre of Tragedy, Emperor and Dimmu Borgir.
* A combination of "80s goth, metal, punk and sometimes even rave looks such that in the "90s goth seems to be a catch-all word for any freakish looking person who doesn't conform to mainstream fashion expectations, so long as they wear at least some black and look somewhat dark.
In order to minimize confusion, I will refer to "90s gothic as "goth-inclined" for the rest of this essay. While I agree with the "80s gothic people that much of what counts as gothic in the "90s probably shouldn't, I also think that there are some gothic aspects in much of "90s popular culture, and it is unfair to ignore these just because the "90s are not exactly like the "80s.
It's Not Your Fault That You're Always Wrong...
Is Marilyn Manson gothic?
"I wasn't a goth--I think maybe I wanted to be but I wasn't cool enough to fit in. I didn't have the confidence, I was invisible, totally insignificant"
- MM, from "Marilyn Manson... In His Own Words"
I would say that the short answer to this question, particularly in regards to Marilyn Manson in the Mechanical Animals period, is no. I would like to be VERY clear when I say this that I am not saying that Manson lacks talent, doesn't deserve notice or otherwise sucks; all I am saying is that he fails to fit into a certain category, something that Manson himself would most likely agree with. After all, Manson often goes on about his fluidity between categories, and I don't think he has ever asserted that he is, in fact, goth anyway. (Or so I thought before I saw that fucking t-shirt, but more on that later...)
As far as gothic goes, it is easy to see that Marilyn Manson is not gothic by observing the following things:
* If you listen to any of the gothic bands I listed above and then listen to Marilyn Manson, you will notice fairly little similarity. Manson's music is much more aggressive and guitar-driven than gothic music.
* While Manson's lyrics are sometimes introspective and definitely dark, especially on Antichrist Superstar, they are again more aggressive than typical gothic lyrics. Very few gothic bands scream, and the ones who do are more graceful than Manson is.
* Manson looked somewhat gothic during the Sweet Dreams and Antichrist Superstar periods, especially when he's done up all nice for photo shoots. However, in concert he's much further on the trashy side as far as appearance goes, and in regards to Mechanical Animals, he's clearly gone glam (or some impure version thereof). I get the impression that he's swinging back toward the vaguely gothic side with his next album. But either way, I think it is important to realize that even if one wants to grant that Manson looks gothic (which I think is in fact true some of the time) that does not necessarily mean that the music is gothic.
On the other hand, I would say that Manson is definitely goth-inclined. He is definitely dark, freakish, and, in spite of his obnoxiousness, displays a degree of introspection and intelligence. He also admits that he has been influenced by such bands as Bauhaus and Alien Sex Fiend, and even by David Bowie, a common influence of goth bands, although he is also very influenced by KISS, Iron Maiden, Alice Cooper and so forth.
You Can't See the Forest For the Trees
A note about the Tainted Love video
The more astute among you may have noticed that in the Tainted Love video, MM has a licence plate that says "goth thug" or something equally obnoxious. I'm under the impression that this video is, like "Another Teen Movie" (characters appear in the video), a parody. That is, in the video, MM and his 'posse' represent both party-crashing 'freaks' (e.g. gothy/fetishy-looking girls, especially) and party-crashing 'hoods' (e.g. all that toque-wearing and pimin'-hand-gesturing). But this 'gangsta-goth' is a construct of the teen movie parody, not unlike the 'token black guy': both serve to mock the entertainment industry's tendency to bombard teens with over-simplified tripe and stereotypical characters that insult their intelligence.
Whether or not the parody succeeeds or merely represents another example of pre-packaged nonsense is of course open to debate. My point, however, is that I think pointing at that license plate so as to say 'see, MM thinks he's goth!' is somewhat rash--regardless of whether one follows up that statement with 'that's so cool' or 'let's burn him at the stake for fucking up the genre.' If I was one of the old school people and some kid waved this in my face as 'proof' that they were right, I'd laugh at them for being so easily deluded by the media. And if I was the kid and some old school person waved this in my face as proof that MM is violating the underground, I'd laugh at them for taking something associated with "Another Teen Movie" so seriously.
A note about what I referred to as "That fucking t-shirt"
Currently (May 30/02) there is a t-shirt for sale on the official MM website that bears the message "Ain't nothing but a goth thing" with MM's initials/new logo on the back. I have several thoughts about this:
* Perhaps it's tongue-in-cheek like the Tainted Love video, but if so I think it fails as a parody due to lack of context.
* After endlessly being called "goth", MM has given up and decided to go with it for the marketing. Arguably he did just this back when Sweet Dreams came out, but now it's just gotten one step more blatant. This may also apply to the video. Maybe he sees this sort of "whoring it up" as vengeance against the oh-so-cool sophisti-goths who wronged him in his subcultural youth.
* MM's going through another goth phase, in terms of appearance and attitude/interests - perhaps the next album actually will sound gothic. Fair enough, I'll wait and see what it sounds like.
* MM actually thinks he is goth in a more-than-just-a-phase way. I'd have to say that I'm a little worried about this given some of the content on the official page recently, e.g. the excessive prevalence of top hats, corsets, absinthe, references to pre-war Berlin and so on. Especially that barely-legible note about what an artist is, which is about the most pretentious bullshit I've heard from MM to date. ("I'm so special because nobody understands me.") This may be an effort to make fun of elitists by becoming one of them (a chaos-magick-style breaking-down-your-ego exercise perhaps) or it may be pure idiocy. Time will tell...
Capitalism Has Made It This Way; Old-Fashioned Facism Will Take It Away
Why does everyone hate each other?
Unless you are very new to the dark side, you are probably aware that many gothic people hate "mansonites", and as a result, many "mansonites" hate "sophisti-goths". While it is true, as one of my friends often says, that "Goths aren't hippies; we don't have to like everyone", I firmly believe that the degree of malice I've seen and experienced is totally counter-productive to both subcultures, the goth and the goth-inclined.
First of all, why does it happen?
From the goth perspective: There you were, minding your own business in the underground, when suddenly a bunch of new people showed up, knowing precious little about musical history or fashion, calling themselves by the same name that you call yourself. Suddenly the name by which you identify yourself is everywhere, but nobody's getting it right. Wouldn't you be offended?
From the goth-inclined perspective: You were totally enthusiastic because you finally found all this music you really liked, so you started experimenting with your appearance. But as soon as you did that, all these people started trashing you when they didn't even know you personally. If you tried to ask them what you were doing wrong, they just became even ruder. Wouldn't you be offended?
I believe that both subcultures have their reasons for greviance. Both groups are guilty of some pretty obnoxious behavior in my opinion:
The obnoxious mansonite:
* Constantly advertises their originality while ignoring that many people have rebelled via appearance in the past.
* Waves "goth" around as if it is a "look how alternative I am" flag without actually knowing anything about it; says things like "Bauhaus sucks" or "These guys sing like fags" , or wears Korn hoodies and baggy black pants, while still claiming to be gothic. More annoying still, acts as if any band they haven't heard of isn't gothic - talk about serious ego insecurity.
* Assumes that every time someone says that they aren't gothic, it's a severe insult. Sometimes people mean "you're not gothic and you suck", but sometimes they just mean "you're not gothic," which hardly seems like something to flip out about.
* Trashes people who don't like Marilyn Manson. (I know Manson himself sometimes provides the temptation, but I really don't think it's very productive.) For that matter, trashes people who don't like Cradle of Filth.
* I have been informed that some obnoxioius mansonites seem to think that such bands as MM, Rammstein and/or Slipknot promote racism, i.e. these racist mansonites think that all goths have to be white (like themselves). Although I haven't met such people myself, the prospect annoys me far more than any of this other behavior, because in my opinion it takes a profound lack of intellect to interpret MM's lyrics as pro-racist.
The obnoxious sophisti-goth:
* Acts as if just because someone is underage and doesn't do their make-up perfectly, that person is beneath dog shit--and they tell the person so.
* Trashes the mansonite, trashes all the mansonite's friends, and tells their own friends to do likewise, even though the sophisti-goth hasn't talked to the mansonite or the mansonite's friends enough to know anything about them.
* Automatically assumes that anything commercial is garbage. (I'm sorry, but if Rozz Williams can see some potential, however minor, in Nirvana, there's really no need for that level of self-righteousness.)
* Even if someone looks truly gothic and likes truly gothic music, if that person also likes Marilyn Manson, the sophisti-goth will act as if the person knows nothing, regardless of how much evidence can be compiled to the contrary.
Much as I hate to take sides, it has been my experience that the problem lies more with the sophisti-goths than the mansonites. Generally, mansonites are teenagers, and as they get older it has been my experience that they find their way into other things; I personally know many people who have gotten into Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Christian Death and others because of their original interest in Marilyn Manson. They grow out of their fanatacism, as I myself have, broadening out into other kinds of more truly alternative music--although this is not to say that all teenagers are fanatical, I have noticed a greater musical variety in the tastes of older fans. However, I think it's a real pity that many mansonites feel the need to hide or deny their like of a great--yet not gothic--band in order to get along with other people who share the musical tastes of some of the older mansonites.
Thus, here are some specific points to ponder for sophisti-goths and anyone else inclined toward being snobbish:
* You were not born goth, and at some point in your life you didn't know everything. Would you have liked people you could learn from trashing you then?
* If you think some mansonites look stupid, why not just be happy because they make you look amazingly good in comparison?
* Some goths say that trashing "the weak" is mandated by the Satanic church. I strongly disagree. It is true that the Satanic church has no patience for weakness, but I don't see what that has to do with not doing your eyeliner properly. To me, trashing everyone in sight is a true sign of weakness; if you were really strong, it would just be obvious to everyone, including yourself, and you wouldn't have to trash anyone.
* I'm sorry if you felt violated when the Cure made mainstream radio play. Believe it or not, some old school "Spooky Kids" felt the same way when Marilyn Manson made it big. But on the other hand, see my Rozz Williams/Nirvana comment above.
* It's also interesting to note that Rozz Williams is not known to have ever made negative comments about the appearance or knowledge of any of his fans, yet I doubt that all of Rozz's fans have been goths of absolute top knowledge and beauty. On the other hand, Rozz Williams doesn't consider himself goth either, to my knowledge - I just mention him as an underground figure, i.e. you can be underground without being a snob.
* Many goths complain about loneliness. If you befriended a mansonite and shaped their interests through your guiding influence, you might gain a friend instead of an enemy in the ever gossip-ridden bar scene. Sappy as that may sound, it has done some good for some people.
* Here's another sappy one: In my experience, goths and goth-inclined people of all kinds share a sense of alienation from society. When subcultures trash each other, everyone looks immature to the "normal" people, and everyone has less support. Maybe that helps maintain the tragedy in life, but I would have very, very little sympathy for someone who trashes everyone and then kills themselves because they're so alone.
* This comment goes beyond trashing mansonites, but I'll say it anyway: you are free to disagree with me on this, but I really don't think that Anne Gwish and Gloom Cookie are how-to guides. If you see Anne Gwish's rational inconsistencies and cute little Lex getting upset as points to celebrate and justify your shitty bar life, I'm glad to not be a "true" goth.
* This really confuses me: ever since death rock and goth came into existence, "normal" people have accused goths of being satan-worshippers, baby-killers, Nazis, black magicians, sexually deviant (in a way that wasn't true
or something like that. It all seems to go like water off a duck's back! Yet call a goth a Mansonite and they freak out! Why??? Not looking pretty is worse than being responsible for 6 million dead Jews? What the fuck???
In a nutshell: Deep music shouldn't produce such shallow people, regardless of what music you're calling deep.
Special thanks:
* Mr. R. Von Spookenhausen (you know who you are). I hex you to one day wake up wearing a Korn hoodie.
* Jeff Cohn, for proving that the goth-inclined can be snobby too... just kidding!
* Eyes of Ancient for the info about racist mansonites. I'm pissed off at them on your behalf as well as on my own.
* Brad, Julia and everyone else at Studio in Montreal who's been nice to me, thereby demonstrating that you can be in the scene without being an asshole.
* Everyone else who has supported me in the face of adversity.
* Note: the term sophisti-goths is taken from the comic "Gloom Cookie."
--------------------------------Written by "Sin"....................................
im getting again (pls dont Im trying to convince myself that if im emotionaly 8 then surely that how old I truely am) 
