The Passion of the Christ movie

[ophelia]

In reference to the Catholic overtones and which version of Catholicism the movie portrays... yes, Gibson does subscribe to the older way of thinking, demonic possession and all (as evident in the film with the appearance of Satan in many of the scenes, as well as demonic children, which has no biblical foundation).

If you see the movie, try to see the Catholic iconography throughout the film. I wished I could pause the movie, for many of the still shots are direct images of the many post- Heliand paintings of Christ. The movie draws heavily upon the Catholic reverence of the Mother Mary, for example, pay attention to the scene where she cradles Christ after he is removed from the cross.

Here are some interesting images:
Note Mary’s clothing- it mirrors the costuming in the film:
http://198.62.75.1/www2/art/images/duccio16.jpg

The crucifixion:
http://198.62.75.1/www2/art/images/duccio15.jpg
http://198.62.75.1/www2/art/images/pietr16.jpg

And Gibson throws in a very demonic twist on the Madonna and the Christ:
http://198.62.75.1/www2/art/images/Raphael13.jpg

Veronica and Jesus:
http://members.aol.com/jocatholic/sta6c.jpg


I think that Gibson has created a motion- picture- painting of the suffering of Christ. And his imagery is beautiful. I won’t offer any opinions as to who killed Jesus: the discussion is arbitrary … read the gospels.

If you feel sympathy for Christ and his sufferings, bring a tissue. I heard sobs from every direction. If you have a weak stomach, be prepared to turn your head. There are also a few strange scenes Gibson threw in just to make the audience jump, so don’t get too comfortable.
[/img]

[ophelia]

Seriously, though, it would be great fun to have some biblical scholars to engage in this discussion, but I'm not sure that we have an abundance of those on hand. We'll just have to muddle through somehow.

Dominion is a biblical scholar, but if I bring this thread to his attention, he'll never shut up.

[JaNell]

Seriously, though, it would be great fun to have some biblical scholars to engage in this discussion, but I'm not sure that we have an abundance of those on hand. We'll just have to muddle through somehow.

Dominion is a biblical scholar, but if I bring this thread to his attention, he'll never shut up.

That would be great; Cam (TheSym) will be on more as time allows, and add his 2¢ as an Archaeologist/Anthropologist. I'm looking forward to checking out those links - in the morning.

[Nexxus23]

Ah wait my silly christian ways were getting the better of me......oh shit you discovered me......I was trying to convert you too....didnt you know thats what us silly christians do you know????? Come on man.....back off.......

Actually, it was your implication that your beliefs involve everyone. Which they don't. I'm personally tired of said implication, made over and over and over ad nauseum until I (and many others) could just about scream.

but ok if it makes you feel better OK everyone but nexxus killed christ.....

See, now your beliefs encompass everyone but the squeaky wheel. Kudos.

Well, if it was god's plan, and Jesus is supposedly god, then he killed himself. Hey... that's a cardinal sin, ain't it? That would mean Jesus is eternally burning in hell. Neat-o.

And I am NOT superstitious!.... THAT is insulting.....I have not condemned anyone on this board for their beleifs as most of them are different from mine. PLease do not belittle mine. Im very sorry, I never should have jumped on this thread. I hope that I didnt offend anyone!

I know you're not superstitious. I know you didn't want to insult anyone. But sometimes just stating your beliefs is going to piss off the unwashed masses (or just the one raving lunatic), dig? *(See above statement for an example of an offensive belief.)* Doesn't matter.

In the end, it's just a goddamned movie. Who fucking cares? In 10 years, only Jesus freaks and bitter ex-Catholics like me will remember it.

*shrugs*

[Mistress Eve(L)]

I noticed "the ecstasy of St. Teresa" in the film.........

[junkie christ]

In the end, it's just a goddamned movie. Who fucking cares? In 10 years, only Jesus freaks and bitter ex-Catholics like me will remember it.*shrugs*

you see now thats the true logic here
he made this flick knowing this would happen
fuck that divine right shit
and in the end only the extreme left and right will remember it
yea like the star of leathal weapon is now your religious source?
dont read into it too far
im going to see it next week and im going to watch it as a movie
worst it could do is reinforce my religious convictiions
think for yourself.
last i recall, God likes that.

[Onibubba]

[/quote]On a sidenote:
what was that South Park line.....?[/quote]

"Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb..." No, wait, that was about the mormons. Also possibly the funniest episode I have ever seen.

BTW: Anyone bought any of that sweet BIG FUCKING NAILS bling bling that's being marketed with the movie? As if the crucifix is not enough of a reminder that this man was murdered. What's next, hammer on a chain? Hmmm...that may be misunderstood as asatruism. Never mind.

[ophelia]

What's next, hammer on a chain?

What's the difference between that and wearing a cross on a chain?

[ophelia]

I noticed "the ecstasy of St. Teresa" in the film.........

Hmmmm.... I missed that one

http://www.artchive.com/artchive/B/bernini/teresa.jpg

[Onibubba]

What's next, hammer on a chain?

What's the difference between that and wearing a cross on a chain?

I was joking that the hammer on the chain might be misinterpreted as a reference to Thor (asatru). But seriously, the difference between wearing a cross on a chain as opposed to the nail or hammer? None. I just do not comprehend the need to dwell on the means of execution as symbolism of faith instead of focusing on the resurrection or his teachings. The fish symbol makes more sense to me as a positive image. It just all seems so brutal and violent and sad and depressing...I thought it was supposed to be a good thing that Jesus died, but isn't there a point where you stop mourning and reflecting on a person's death and begin to reflect on their life and celebrate that?

Several comedians have made reference to the thought that if Jesus was executed by the state today, would people be wearing little electric chairs or needles around their necks (depending on the means of execution). It sounds far out, but I wonder...

Sorry if I appear to be flippant or insensitive. I do not mean to be insulting, but for the longest time I have had a problem with this projection of death as a representation of devotion.

[Mistress Eve(L)]

NOT ECSTASY OF ST.TERESA...........so sorry got my art hitory book out for this one......its a commonly painted theme but "The Lamentation" by Giotto

or by Botticelli http://artyzm.com/world/b/botticelli/lamentation.htm

or Giotto which is verbatum the order of characters and their placement in the movie
http://www.udel.edu/ArtHistory/werth/Italian%20Ren%20final/pages/Giotto,%20Arena%20Chapel,%20Lamentation.htm
but that still isnt the one i am thinking of .....the very scene at the foot of te cross....its a sculpture and If I find it I will post it.

[torch_32]

JaNell asked, "Who here is actively (and seriously) studying an ancient language, ancient religion, ancient philosophy, or ancient history? How are you going about it? Where? For what purpose?"

I am studying Hebrew and Judaism in order to convert. I take classes at the conservative shul here in Knoxville, and I'm doing a lot of reading on my own. I bought Hebrew workbooks online at Amazon. I guess one day I will attempt to learn Aramaic in order to read the ancient documents.

The big reason why I wanted to learn Hebrew (WAY before I wanted to convert to Judaism-- when I was actually a Christian) was so that I could read the Bible and translate it for myself. You wouldn't believe how bad most of the translations are. It's truly frightening. A wrong translation can totally mess you up and make contradictions appear where there were originally none. *sigh*

Oh, and until somebody said that this thread would lead to nothing but trouble and that feelings would get hurt, I honestly haven't seen ANYONE on here TRYING to offend anyone else. On this thread are pagans, Christians, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, and even a Jew or two. In this day and age, most of us are keenly aware of how to be PC about topics like this and yet have a frank discussion. To offend and be offended here is just a little beneath us, right? That's what I thought.

[doctorthoss]

What's next, hammer on a chain?

What's the difference between that and wearing a cross on a chain?

I was joking that the hammer on the chain might be misinterpreted as a reference to Thor (asatru). But seriously, the difference between wearing a cross on a chain as opposed to the nail or hammer? None. I just do not comprehend the need to dwell on the means of execution as symbolism of faith instead of focusing on the resurrection or his teachings. The fish symbol makes more sense to me as a positive image. It just all seems so brutal and violent and sad and depressing...I thought it was supposed to be a good thing that Jesus died, but isn't there a point where you stop mourning and reflecting on a person's death and begin to reflect on their life and celebrate that?

Several comedians have made reference to the thought that if Jesus was executed by the state today, would people be wearing little electric chairs or needles around their necks (depending on the means of execution). It sounds far out, but I wonder...

Sorry if I appear to be flippant or insensitive. I do not mean to be insulting, but for the longest time I have had a problem with this projection of death as a representation of devotion.

I really liked the comment about people wearing electric chairs or needles around their necks ...
Christianity is as diverse as faith as any other, and I for one like the cross as a symbol for exactly the reason alluded to by the comedians you mention -- he was executed, after legal due process (for his time and place) for putting forth a message of tolerance and forgiveness. To me, THAT is the big issue with his death, rather than metaphysical musings on whether or not his death somehow saved the rest of mankind (I'm not sure how I feel about that whole issue). He was a moral reformer who was executed, just as many other moral reformers have been executed, and I think the lesson was quite simple: DON'T DO THAT KIND OF SHIT TO PEOPLE.
In that sense, I don't have an intrinsic problem with a violent depiction of his death. SHould anyone ever do a similar film treatment for Gandhi, Socrates, MLK, etc., I would approve of it as well -- hopefully, it would make the viewers think twice before persecuting/slaughtering those who have different beliefs (I know that's wishful thinking).
BTW -- I think the early Christians adopted the cross to symbolize his triumph over death by maybe (or maybe not -- depends on whom you ask) rising from the dead. In that way, they were saying that this terrible symbol of suffering and death was no longer that at all -- in fact, death was now defeated, and what better way to show your indifference to it? There were also probably some political connotations with it as well, since crucifixion was used quite widely by the Romans. Think of how persecuted groups often adopt symbols or words from their oppressors to "neuter" them, so to speak -- like when blacks began using the "n-" word or even the famous peace symbol used in the '60s (which has a strong resemblance to the sign used to represent nuclear materials/weapons).
Just a thought.

[DarkVader]

Here's an interesting take on the movie:

From: Martin Cannon (mjcannon137@yahoo.com)
Subject: Jesus in sub-space: "The Passion" revealed
View: Complete Thread (5 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
Date: 2004-02-26 09:43:07 PST

"THE PASSION": JESUS IN SUB-SPACE

I first encountered "traditionalist" Catholicism back in the 1970s.

As a teen, I went shopping for religions, or at least tried to sample
all the selections before retreating into generalized cynicism. One
evening I found myself listening to a lecture given by a man I'll call
Father Pierre, a fellow who seemed to believe in anything and
everything -- bleeding communion wafers, Our Lady of Fatima, splinters
of the True Cross, you name it. Everything, that is, except the legacy
of the Vatican II conference, which had tried to drag the Catholic
Church into the modern age. The modern age held no charms for Father
Pierre.

My attention drifted to the small aviary of young-ish ‘nuns' who
flitted about the handsome Father Pierre, tending to his every need.
"Oh, he's so spiritual this evening!" one cooed to the other.

"Yes, yes," replied her sister. "So spiritual. Filled with power and
spirit..."

These gals were gushing. In more ways than one. They practically left
snail trails on the carpet. (I was hardly surprised to discover, many
years later, that accusations of ‘impropriety' swirled around Father
Pierre.)

Nothing ushers you into cynicism faster than a youthful encounter with
the subterranean sexual underpinnings of extreme religiosity.

Watching Mel Gibson's well-crafted but unmoving "The Passion of the
Christ" reminded me of that long-ago evening. My initial fears that
evangelicals would find this film a potent recruiting device have
proven groundless. By exposing the psychopathology underlying his
version of traditionalist Christianity, Gibson has made the worst
possible argument for his faith.

"The Passion" strips Jesus of his message, ignores (for the most part)
both his humanity and his spirituality, and reduces him to a suffering
cipher. In Gibson's hands, Jesus becomes the central figure in a work
of blood-soaked homosexual pornography. This film is a two-hour-long
BDSM session, with Jesus playing "bottom" for a Jerusalem teeming with
ruthless gay Doms.

I do not object to the level of violence. I object, in part, to the
fact that violence is all this film has to offer, just as sex is all
that a sex film has to offer. First and foremost, I object to a
filmmaker so lacking in self-awareness that he cannot admit, either to
his audience or to himself, the true motives underlying his
obsessions.

BDSM explores primeval areas of sexuality and self-worth, and many who
feel drawn to the imagery of erotic torture can never acknowledge this
attraction on a conscious level. Mel Gibson, obviously, doesn't have
the courage to look into this mirror. However, as Father Pierre's
‘nuns' taught me, religion can offer an outlet for the repressed and
unacknowledged side of one's sexuality.

Those who've read about BDSM, or spoken to anyone involved with the
lifestyle, will recognize the flagellation scene in "Passion" for what
it is: A hyperbolized version of the sort of activity that thousands
of men and women experience in makeshift "dungeons" across the world,
sometimes even paying for the privilege. The punishment we see on
screen has little to do with actual Roman justice; forget about the
traditional 39 lashes administered by bored soldiers just doing their
jobs. The soldiers onscreen here relish their duties with a flagrantly
sexual glee.

In most BDSM scenes, the flogging slowly increases in intensity. The
session starts with the lighter instruments of torment, then proceeds
to the heavier, more sanguinary implements. When the "bottom" has
achieved an altered state of consciousness called "sub-space," the
"Top" turns him over to administer flagellation on the more sensitive
front side of his body. "The Passion" follows this time-honored
sequence, differing from offerings of fetish pornographers only in the
quantity of its bloodletting.

The Roman flagrum, I've read, had small bits of metal or animal bone
embedded into the tails. That's not good enough for Gibson, who
provides huge meat hooks which dig deep into the flesh. What we see on
screen is not just the record of a "normal" BDSM scene; this is a born
masochist's vision of the ultimate in submission.

Before the first time they administer the whip or the cane, Tops are
admonished to keep all strikes between the shoulder blades, never
hitting the sensitive sides of the abdomen. Many sadists, however,
long for the forbidden, and the more extreme Tops dream about finding
a bottom who consents to being flogged anywhere, even in the
proscribed zones. Similarly, the most extreme bottoms take an odd
pride in their lack of limitations. Once we understand this sexual
dynamic, we can better understand why the flagellation in "Passion"
builds to a climactic shot in which the flagrum cuts deep into the
side of Jesus' flesh. The camera records this blow in clear,
pornographic detail. Jesus reacts with an agony tinged with ecstasy.

A few subs dreamily consider extending their suffering to its logical
conclusion -- the final submission. The Gospel story has spawned many
a necro-erotic vision; a few underground BDSM clubs have featured live
crucifixions. These extreme sexual fantasies, founded on guilts and
self-hatreds many share but few confess, may well be the hidden source
for orthodox Christianity's barbaric theology of blood substitution
and human sacrifice to appease a primitive deity.

When Gibson's lifeless Jesus receives the spear in the side, resulting
in a (Biblically justifiable) gusher of blood and liquid, a Roman
soldier gets sprayed in the face. Anyone one who has ever watched an
adult video will recognize this moment as the film's cum shot.

Having spent himself on Golgotha, Gibson cannot bother with the
entombment, the anointing, the garden encounter, the angels in the
tomb or the other details of the Resurrection. The empty tomb doesn't
arouse him. The Ascension bores him. Mary Magdalene? Pheh. She's so
vanilla.

Now we know why Gibson gave his film a title with an obvious double
meaning. Now we know the reason for his well-known discomfort with
homosexuality. Now we know why images of torture permeate so many of
his films.

Even Bill O'Reilly's recent television interview with the fidgety,
manic Gibson inadvertently revealed this film-maker's pathological
masochism. My cathode ray tube has hosted few images more obscene than
that of Mel Gibson whining about the sufferings and persecutions he
has undergone. In a world teeming with unfortunates beset by genuine
poverty and oppression, this widely-loved, world-famous
mega-millionaire has the audacity to claim HE is the one undergoing
"persecution" -- simply because some people dared to criticize his
movie. What stupefying audacity!

Gibson carried this audacity to further heights when he spoke of
loving his persecutors. In doing so, he displayed an obnoxious
condescension -- but he also let us glimpse a carefully occulted
truth. On a certain plane, he does indeed love his persecutors. Or
rather: He loves the idea of being persecuted.

Gibson has bragged about the fact that, on screen, his is the hand
that drives the first nail. We are told that he made this gesture to
emphasize his own sense of sin. Yes, Mel, we know. You've been a bad
boy. You've been a VERY bad boy.

-- Martin Cannon

(This text, if unaltered, can be reproduced anywhere.)

[DarkVader]

Oh, and I have no intention of bothering with seeing this movie. It sounds thoroughly uninteresting.

[Onibubba]

Oh fuck Vader, that was harsh! Very funny review which I immediately copied and sent to everyone I thought would appreciate it

Hoss, thanks for the comments about the cross. I'm familiar with the reasons for it, just can't comprehend them. The comment about a persecuted community accepting a negative word or image as their own, thus taking the venom out of it, though...I had NOT thought about it that way. That is interesting...

I guess what I am confused about is this: What is of more importance to christianity, the fact that he died or the fact that he rose? I'm inclined to believe it is his death as that seems to be the focus of how the religion is protrayed - and I am not talking about this movie, I am talking about things like t-shirts (This Blood's for you!), jewelry, and bumper stickers - sign of expression of faith. There are exceptions, but most seem to focus on he DIED for you (guilt sin fear) instead of he ROSE for you (redemption love hope).

[JaNell]

Hoss, thanks for the comments about the cross. I'm familiar with the reasons for it, just can't comprehend them. The comment about a persecuted community accepting a negative word or image as their own, thus taking the venom out of it, though...I had NOT thought about it that way. That is interesting...

I think that, perhaps, the pink triangle used by the Nazis to mark homosexuals, which is now being worn as a symbol of pride, is a much better example than that of blacks using the word "nigger". "Nigger" is still universally used as a put-down; it's more an example of a subjugated group emulating their oppressors amongst themselves in order to identify with the people in power than an example of "claiming" a symbol of oppression to take back power. The pink triangle is no longer primarily associated with oppression, but "nigger" is still an ugly, racist word.

There's an interesting text at Project Gutenburg on the history of the Christians' adoption of the cross as a symbol: [url=http://www.gutenberg.net/etext05/cross10h.htm]THE
NON-CHRISTIAN CROSS: AN ENQUIRY INTO THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE SYMBOL EVENTUALLY ADOPTED AS THAT OF OUR RELIGION[/url].

I agree that the fish, symbolizing feeding the people, is a much more positive representation of what Jesus was trying to teach us. One of my favorite biblical quotes, "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these, my brethren, you did it to me (Matthew 25)" as always seemed to be one of the strongest commands to kindness expressed by Jesus. To me, Jesus is saying that, whomever YOU see as the least, whomever YOU are most bigoted against - Jews, homosexuals, blacks, women, Iraqis, whomever - how you treat them is how you treat Jesus.

Of course I'm all about the "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness", no murdering, and no stealing bits, too.
If I am not a Christian it is not because I have a problem with Jesus.

[Onibubba]

If I am not a Christian it is not because I have a problem with Jesus.

Amen to that sister! I'm still a little foggy on the whole "Blessed are the cheesemakers" thing though. Not too fond of the meek either, but other than that, yeah, he was a pretty good egg.

[Balance]

if jesus knew his death was coming wasn't that a bit like passive suicide? (you know-suicide by attacking a cop)

Or how about this:the jews didn't kill him, his god did-the jews were the instrument in gods hand.

(guns don't kill people, god does.)

[blindboy]

what was that South Park line.....?

Kyle: You'll never get a platinum album doing Christian rock, Cartman! It was a stupid idea then, and it's a stupid idea now!
Stan: Yeah, you don't even know anything about Christianity.
Cartman: I know enough to exploit it.

that one?