An overly lengthy discussion of the KnoxGothic camera policy

Post by **DarkVader** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:21 pm

KnoxGothic.com now has a camera policy to prevent such events as occurred after the Halloween party with photographers charging for pictures. If you bring a camera, be prepared to sign the following contract or take your camera back to the car.

If you bring in your camera without signing the contract, it WILL BE CONFISCATED, and all film/media removed and/or erased. You will be kicked out of Sanctus for the rest of the night. Disposable cameras will not be returned.

Please don't try to request exemption from the policy on the grounds of being a "professional photographer". Professional photographers are EXACTLY who this contract is aimed at, and you will not be granted an exception.

Contract follows:

KNOXGOTHIC.COM CAMERA CONTRACT

Recording Device Contract between KnoxGothic.com and _________________________ (please print) herein referred to as ï¿½Photographerï¿½ this the _____ day of November, 2004.

This agreement is between the organization known as KnoxGothic.com and Photographer.

Photographer agrees that in exchange for the privilege of being permitted to bring his or her camera or other recording device into the KnoxGothic.com sponsored event commencing on November 28, 2004 and all future KnoxGothic.com sponsored events, he or she will assign copyright of all images and/or sounds recorded during said event to KnoxGothic.com, and will not attempt to claim copyright to any images or recordings made during the KnoxGothic.com sponsored event.

Photographer also agrees that in exchange for said privilege, he or she will not take photographs or make audio recordings of anyone who objects in any way to the photographs or recordings and makes it known to photographer. Photographer agrees to destroy any images upon the request of the person being photographed, or upon the request of a member of the KnoxGothic.com Board of Directors.

Photographer further agrees to carry a copy of this contract or a KnoxGothic.com Recording Device Permit Card on his or her person for the duration of his or her presence at the KnoxGothic.com sponsored event and present that copy upon request. Failure to produce the copy of this contract or the card will result in confiscation of any photographic or recording equipment.

Photographer further agrees to bear all of his or her own litigation costs related to this contract, and any legal costs incurred by KnoxGothic.com related to any action taken by Photographer or any agent thereof, and/or the costs of any enforcement action taken by KnoxGothic.com related to this contract.

Photographer will receive a colored dot which must be placed upon his or her equipment, and which must remain on that equipment for the duration of that equipmentï¿½s presence upon the premises of any KnoxGothic.com sponsored event.

Photographer is hereby granted a license to reproduce the images or recordings for personal use or free distribution. KnoxGothic.com reserves all other rights to any other use of images or recordings, including but not limited to sale of the images or recordings for profit or charity.

This agreement is made this _____ day of November, 2004, between Photographer and ___________________________, KnoxGothic.com representative.

Camera permit card number _________ has been issued to this photographer and shall act as a substitute for carrying a copy of this contract. A copy of this contract will be made available to Photographer via the KnoxGothic.com website.

____________________________
Photographer

____________________________
KnoxGothic.com representative

Caustic · Post by **Caustic** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:22 am

Sounds like a bum deal to me. Signing it waives all rights indefinitely for anything KnoxGothic sponsored and places the onus of financial responsibility upon anyone who signs the contract, no matter who's to fault? Ouch.

So, what about camera phones? Does anyone bringing in a camera phone have to sign this?

JaNell · Post by **JaNell** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:06 am

Caustic wrote:Sounds like a bum deal to me. Signing it waives all rights indefinitely for anything KnoxGothic sponsored and places the onus of financial responsibility upon anyone who signs the contract, no matter who's to fault? Ouch.

So, what about camera phones? Does anyone bringing in a camera phone have to sign this?

Good points.

DarkVader wrote:KnoxGothic.com now has a camera policy to prevent such events as occurred after the Halloween party with photographers charging for pictures. If you bring a camera, be prepared to sign the following contract or take your camera back to the car.

If you bring in your camera without signing the contract, it WILL BE CONFISCATED, and all film/media removed and/or erased. You will be kicked out of Sanctus for the rest of the night. Disposable cameras will not be returned.

Please don't try to request exemption from the policy on the grounds of being a "professional photographer". Professional photographers are EXACTLY who this contract is aimed at, and you will not be granted an exception.

Contract follows:

KNOXGOTHIC.COM CAMERA CONTRACT

Recording Device Contract between KnoxGothic.com and _________________________ (please print) herein referred to as “Photographer” this the _____ day of November, 2004.

This agreement is between the organization known as KnoxGothic.com and Photographer.

Photographer agrees that in exchange for the privilege of being permitted to bring his or her camera or other recording device into the KnoxGothic.com sponsored event commencing on November 28, 2004 and all future KnoxGothic.com sponsored events, he or she will assign copyright of all images and/or sounds recorded during said event to KnoxGothic.com, and will not attempt to claim copyright to any images or recordings made during the KnoxGothic.com sponsored event.

Photographer also agrees that in exchange for said privilege, he or she will not take photographs or make audio recordings of anyone who objects in any way to the photographs or recordings and makes it known to photographer. Photographer agrees to destroy any images upon the request of the person being photographed, or upon the request of a member of the KnoxGothic.com Board of Directors.

Photographer further agrees to carry a copy of this contract or a KnoxGothic.com Recording Device Permit Card on his or her person for the duration of his or her presence at the KnoxGothic.com sponsored event and present that copy upon request. Failure to produce the copy of this contract or the card will result in confiscation of any photographic or recording equipment.

Photographer further agrees to bear all of his or her own litigation costs related to this contract, and any legal costs incurred by KnoxGothic.com related to any action taken by Photographer or any agent thereof, and/or the costs of any enforcement action taken by KnoxGothic.com related to this contract.

Photographer will receive a colored dot which must be placed upon his or her equipment, and which must remain on that equipment for the duration of that equipment’s presence upon the premises of any KnoxGothic.com sponsored event.

Photographer is hereby granted a license to reproduce the images or recordings for personal use or free distribution. KnoxGothic.com reserves all other rights to any other use of images or recordings, including but not limited to sale of the images or recordings for profit or charity.

This agreement is made this _____ day of November, 2004, between Photographer and ___________________________, KnoxGothic.com representative.

Camera permit card number _________ has been issued to this photographer and shall act as a substitute for carrying a copy of this contract. A copy of this contract will be made available to Photographer via the KnoxGothic.com website.

____________________________
Photographer

____________________________
KnoxGothic.com representative

Basically the contract is saying that the photographer agrees that KnoxGothic owns the right to sell/distribute any photos taken at Sanctus, period.

This DOES NOT protect the privacy or image rights of any individual. It simply doesn't allow ACTUAL professional photographers to take photos (and get signed release forms) from willing models, some of whom are eager to pose for professional pics and sign a release in exchange for a nicely done 8x10 of themselves at their hottest.

It does allow KnoxGothic to own the copyright on the photos, but if KG sells those photos, the photographer gets sued by the individual, not KG.

:shock:

tat2jay · Post by **tat2jay** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:46 am

wow, i just shelved my camara for sunday nights -
i dont like the idea of someone else owning the rights to my work - i can understand a contract banning the sell for profit and a few other very good and very valid points but this seems to be a bit too extreme

Ray+Wendy · Post by **Ray+Wendy** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:46 am

I've just cancelled any trips out to Sanctus.

I do what I do for fun.
I've never taken a dime from anyone for it.
I always get permission and show the person the picture, sometimes I've retaken it several times to get it right for them.
If they ask, the picture remains private, or destroyed.

I will not sign over copyright to any third party.

Sincerely,
Ray
Photographer & PR
NashvilleRHPS

Hardcoregirl · Post by **Hardcoregirl** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:26 am

Geez...one asshole has to ruin everyones fun...

The Stormstress · Post by **The Stormstress** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:15 pm

tat2jay wrote:wow, i just shelved my camara for sunday nights -
i dont like the idea of someone else owning the rights to my work - i can understand a contract banning the sell for profit and a few other very good and very valid points but this seems to be a bit too extreme

^^^ I totally agree!

QueenOfTheFlock · Post by **QueenOfTheFlock** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:06 pm

Can this be reworked? I don't even bring a camera really because I don't have a good one.

I mean, this just sounds a lot harsher than needed. This just sort of seems....off to me. I dunno.

Post by **Arkady** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:57 pm

Anyone with a better idea of how to deal with the situation is welcome to post their suggestions here. It's a damned if we do damned if we don't situation and we are certainly not trying to be harsh.

tat2jay · Post by **tat2jay** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:06 pm

Arkady wrote:Anyone with a better idea of how to deal with the situation is welcome to post their suggestions here. It's a damned if we do damned if we don't situation and we are certainly not trying to be harsh.

leave the copyrights in the hands of the photographer

i dont think anyone holds sanctus or knoxgothic responsible for what happened on halloween, the issue was taken up with the photographers/web site directly, as far as i can tell - there may be a lot more background to it than that, but nothing any of us have heard of i dont think. just a simple thing saying that no photos can be taken at sanctus that will be used to sell for profit, how to police it? i dont know, but i thinkn thats putting extra strain on the KGB to deal with it -
i dont know if it helps, but my plans for temple are to basicly keep an eye open for anyone i dont know with a pro or semi pro camera taking photos, ask them what they are for and so long as they are for personal use and the subjects are ok with it, so am i, if they tell me its for profit for a website, then i will ask them to clear their card and or film and leave the club or take the camera to the car - its a low tech and not a perfect solution but i dont want to keep my patrons from being able to easily document their fun night out

like i said, the contract addresses a lot of valid issues, it just seems very heavy handed

shadow dancer · Post by **shadow dancer** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:04 pm

tat2jay wrote:i dont know if it helps, but my plans for temple are to basicly keep an eye open for anyone i dont know with a pro or semi pro camera taking photos, ask them what they are for and so long as they are for personal use and the subjects are ok with it, so am i, if they tell me its for profit for a website, then i will ask them to clear their card and or film and leave the club or take the camera to the car

Its not like I have a dog in this fight since I no longer have my digital camera, but what do you do when the photographer tells you the photos aren't for profit, and then someone comes across the photos for sale on the internet later? There's nothing to hold the person to not selling the photos other than a verbal statement.
I understand that this system would be an honor system, but I, personally, wouldn't trust people I didn't know.
As far as I can see, there is no good solution. One person ruined it for the rest, but if it is just overlooked, more people may jump on that bandwagon, and it could potentially turn into a bigger problem. On the flip side, taking the copyrights to a photographer's work out of that photographer's hands is a little harsh as well.
I'm not exactly great on photography legalities, but for Sanctus, why not have a signed statement that simply says the photos will not be sold for profit? If a photographer is that interested in having pictures to sell, tell them to take it offsite. Then, there will be something in writing to hold the photographer to not selling the photos without taking the copyright from him/her.
At least now, I'm understanding more why the Endless Night organizers required an application for a press pass to bring cameras into the event.

tat2jay · Post by **tat2jay** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:17 pm

true, but its almost impossible to stop someone from taking a photo and selling it later, just as easy to wait outside the club or do it at the mall at hot topic or at IHOP if they wanted to
this has happened once, and yes i can see that it sucks, but i honestly do not think the problem will grow

JaNell · Post by **JaNell** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:35 pm

shadow dancer wrote:Its not like I have a dog in this fight since I no longer have my digital camera, but what do you do when the photographer tells you the photos aren't for profit, and then someone comes across the photos for sale on the internet later? There's nothing to hold the person to not selling the photos other than a verbal statement.

There's the legal bit about needing a signed release form.

Personally I'm all for everyone whose photo is for sale without their consent posting that fact - and the photographer's name and business - on their blogs so that if someone Googles the photographer's name they can see how unprofessional he is.

Legal action is good, too.

;-)

Caustic · Post by **Caustic** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:07 pm

shadow dancer wrote:what do you do when the photographer tells you the photos aren't for profit, and then someone comes across the photos for sale on the internet later? There's nothing to hold the person to not selling the photos other than a verbal statement.

That depends on the legal status of Sanctus. Personally, I consider it a public event; even though you have to pay to enter, there's no discrimination above that basic monetary level. As a public event, then, they're acting within the law, more or less, as people in public are, if I recall my comm law correctly, fair game for taking pictures of and making money off of those pictures. Example, pictures of New York City; imagine trying to have everyone in a shot sign a waiver. Gads.

If Sanctus were a private party, then I think you'd have to move to a more consent-based legal frame for picture taking, one where a person would have recourse if the photograph were found and being sold against their permission.

Of course, I could be hazy, and I'm no lawyer, meaning anyone who wants to double-check this should certainly do so, but that sounds about 90% correct to me.

tat2jay · Post by **tat2jay** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:11 pm

JaNell wrote:
shadow dancer wrote:Its not like I have a dog in this fight since I no longer have my digital camera, but what do you do when the photographer tells you the photos aren't for profit, and then someone comes across the photos for sale on the internet later? There's nothing to hold the person to not selling the photos other than a verbal statement.

There's the legal bit about needing a signed release form.

Personally I'm all for everyone whose photo is for sale without their consent posting that fact - and the photographer's name and business - on their blogs so that if someone Googles the photographer's name they can see how unprofessional he is.

Legal action is good, too.

oooh i like this a lot!

like i said before, was KG or sanctus or blue cats gettinga lot of flak over this or was it just the photographer recieveing the bad vibe?

vicious_blood · Post by **vicious_blood** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:27 pm

Hmm. Where as I can see some valid points made by the contract, I wouldn't want to sign away the copyrights of my pics.

It does seem like a lot of nonsense in a way. But I understand that they are just trying to take precautions.

I say if people you don't know are taking pictures of you, then make them stop. I know that's easier said than done, but still. This was like one isolated time. IMO it doesn't seem like it has happened all that much.

I do wonder how much that guy made off of Gregoris pic tho.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:23 pm

I want to make sure I understand this new policy. If I bring in a $5.00 disposable camera to take pictures of my friends, I must sign a contract that states the pictures are not mine, they are the KGB's? That I can't post them on the web so everyone can see them? That I can't make copies of them without permision from the KGB? That if I refuse to sign this "contract" that enforces this policy, that my $5.00 camera will be confiscated and the photos destroyed and I will be ejected for the night?

I am just wanting to be clear, because if that is the case, then I will not take any form of pictures at Sanctus any longer.

I understand that the KGB is trying to police folks that are making a profit from folks attending the function, but isn't this a bit of a knee jerk reaction?

Sorry that I don't have a solution to this problem, but I have to say, this in my opinion is way to harsh.

QueenOfTheFlock · Post by **QueenOfTheFlock** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:48 pm

Maybe a contract that simply states that any pictures taken will not be sold for profit without subject conscent. I mean, that allows the photographer to keep the copyright but states that they can't sale them without permission. I mean, no need to involve the copyrights, IMO, but if they are found somewhere being sold, there would be paperwork stating that this was a signed agreement and they have to take the pictures down. I mean, if we have to go this route, I think this is a little less extreme/harsh way of doing so.

Caustic · Post by **Caustic** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:25 am

This link sounds vaguely correct, and if not, offers enough insight that someone should look into Tennessee law to see what it may and may not cover before the flashes at Sanctus go dark.

Beelzabetty · Post by **Beelzabetty** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:49 am

Key words here people.... RELEASE FORM
Unless you plan to do a cavity search on EVERYONE coming into Sanctus, then it will not matter what type of contract/agreement you draw up, it can be thwarted.
Cell phones have cameras on them now. Are you thinking you can confiscate those as well? Right.
Honestly... this seems a little harsh. What next? Are you going to ban sketch pads too? Will there be a seperate contract for sketches?
I'm in agreement with JaNell. Post this guy's name and business all over the net. Let the whole world know he's an ass. It just seems a little over-reactionary to make EVERYONE carry a "Gothic Press Pass". But hey... not to worry... this crowd responds well to being regulated and policed.