Hello All ,
Well it seems biggotry and Redneck behavior is alive and well in the Gothic community . That's the only thing we can possibly call the harsh detractors to those who wish to follow their faith and retain their identity . I mean what do you call comments like " I have a right to disciminate against ignorant people " . Knowing many Christian PHDs , Engineers , Surgeons , Financial advisors , Astronauts , and even Gothic frontrunners , I should suggest that the person who made that comment , discriminate against themselves as well . That person is without a doubt , more ignorant academically and socially , than most Christians I associate with . By the way , you do NOT have a RIGHT to discriminate against anybody because of their religious beliefs ! When the Gothic Community started back in 1982 (knoxville) we had to fight for our right to exist . I mean real combat . We were often attacked by punks , jocks , and even fundamentalist Christians , because we were an unknown quantity . We were different , and creepy to them . We were a mixed bag as well . Most of the Goths in the beggining , were Christians , not Pagans . I'm not sure the Pagan community existed when this started . They certainly were not part of the Gothic Community . The very thing we represented in Knoxville was acceptance and inclusion , because the redneck assholes we had chose to differentiate ourselves from , were exclusionistic and not willing to accept change in any form . As a matter of fact , religious paths were never an issue ; to each their own . Now I find that there are also rednecks , discriminators , segregationistic dullards , and fundamentalist pagans? in the Gothic Community . Folks if you want discriminate , it is against these very people that you should do it . There is no room for people , in an inclusionistic society , that are exclusionists by nature ; in fact no better than the fundamentalist Christians they profess to hate . Hate doesn't really belong in an inclusionistic society . Stereotyping and labeling are also NOT COOL . It is the trademark of the brain dead . I was also a bit embarrassed at the lack of education amongst the Christians that were on the "Gothic Christianity Anyone?" thread . It is absolutely essential that Christians be educated as to the true nature and facts of their own beliefs . It seemed that when challenged , everybody cowed . I was too pissed off to properly respond at the time . Largely because of the blatant , neandrethal response of the detractors . I tell you one and all , discriminate against the discriminators and put them away . Their is no room for this type of behavior . It is the behavior of terrorists , race haters , Nazis , etc. . Discrimination is not the ear mark of the intellectually gifted , but the intellectually challenged . As for the Christian detractors , I'll be happy to debate any of the weak assed points you threw up on that thread , ANYTIME in ANY PUBLIC PLACE . I'll make minced meat out of you . I know my belief . Ask Brian if I'm not capable . I turned that same intellect on a fundamenatlist Christian that tried to interfere with the running if his PAGAN BOOKSTORE when it was located on Gay Street . That particular idiot could find good company within this community these days it seems . Yep , a Christian GOTH stood down a fundamenatlist Christian who was on the attack against a Pagan member of the Gothic Community . That's how it's supposed to work . All for one , one for all . As for the Christians inabilty to defend your faith in the face of half assed educated agnostics , atheists , and Pagans , I reccommend that you read "The case for Christ " By Lee Strobel . After you familiarize yourself with the factual research in that book , these flies will be easily swatted ( and embarrassed) . I would also be willing to debate the Pagan belief with many of the Pagan detractors that showed up on that thread . Your responses show that you are posures or ignorant of your own religious tenants . That's all for now . I'm still willing to help those who wish to freely practice their faith , in a manner that is appealing to them , to repond at will .
Gothic Christian Challenge
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NoBoogerMan
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vertigo25
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1: Labels aren't cool? You mean except labels like "Redneck," "Bigot," "Discriminator," "Dullard," "Poseur," and "Ignorant." Or maybe you mean labels aren't cool, unless you apply them. Obviously, you can't be one of the "brain dead" because you're so smart.
2: Some spelling tips:
"neandrethal" - The word is "Neanderthal." Note the spelling and the capital "N."
"posure," "posures" - should be "poseurs," "poseurs"
"biggot," "biggotry" = There only needs to be one 'g' there, big guy.
"segregationistic" is not a word, no matter how badly you want it to be.
"recommend" only has one 'c', but that could have been a typo, I suppose. God knows I have typos all the time. Can't begrudge a man that.
"fundamenatlist" - I think you mean: "fundamentalist." At first I thought this might be a typo, too, but you use it a couple of times and it's spelled the same way both times.
3: Where the hell did you learn to punctuate? Are you just addicted to the space bar or something? Or maybe all of the chest pounding about how smart you are is nothing more than temper tantrum?
4: Not all detractors to Christianity are Pagans. Don't make assumptions.
5: "When the Gothic Community started back in 1982". I wasn't in Knoxville at the time, and if I had been, I would have been 12. I doubt I would have been a Goth, or anything other than the really awkward fuzzy-headed kid that I was. I was in to the Goth/Club scene there quite a bit later; some time around '87, '88. I'm having trouble believing there was any kind of Goth "Community" in '82, given the size of the crowd around '88. Like I said, though, I wasn't there. Anyway, I do remember fights around the time that I was there. These almost always involved rednecks or frat boys who either wandered in to our clearly pissed on territory, or we did so in to theirs. The thing is, except for once, I never actually got in to any of those fights. There was a few close calls, but those would always be broken up before any blows were thrown.
6: "The very thing we represented in Knoxville was acceptance and inclusion , because the redneck assholes we had chose to differentiate ourselves from , were exclusionistic and not willing to accept change in any form" Do you even see all of the logical errors in that statement? You represented inclusion, but differentiated yourself from at least one specific group, and then were upset that they excluded you. Double-yoo-tee-eff?
7: "Your responses show that you are posures or ignorant of your own religious tenants." I'm assuming that you're talking to the other Christians who made such lousy attempts to stick up for themselves in that thread. That's a pretty typical response of Christians: "You aren't acting the way I think you should act, therefore, you don't believe in Christ the proper way. Here, let me explain to you where you've gone wrong." I'm fairly certain that this is your view, given your earlier statement of, "It is absolutely essential that Christians be educated as to the true nature and facts of their own beliefs." I hear crap like that and I immediately translate it to, "If you want to claim that you belong to our special club, you must see that there is only one way to think, and that way is by my definition!"
That last point is the one I mainly wanted to make. You really seem to have some seriously flawed reasoning. I'm wondering if maybe you've ever read any Richard Dawkins, Douglas Hofstadter, or anything that challenges your own views. Or is it too dark with your head that far up your ass?
I see this line of reason a lot in both the Christian culture, and amongst a lot of young Goths. It really is the definition of needing someone else to do your thinking for you.
You don't even seem to be able to follow your own rules. Telling people not to label, not to discriminate, but then actually stating that they should discriminate against the people you tell them they should.
8: "Their is no room for this type of behavior . It is the behavior of terrorists , race haters , Nazis , etc. . Discrimination is not the ear mark of the intellectually gifted , but the intellectually challenged." First: the word you're looking for here is "there," not "their." Secondly, I want to point out that Hitler was a Christian, as are most people who identify themselves as white supremacists. Also, to my knowledge there has never been an atheist, pagan, or Buddhist inspired terrorist attack, although some nice Muslims did decide to blow up some of the most ancient Buddhist statues in the world last year, and of course there were those pesky Christians who bombed abortion clinics and sent Anthrax to our elected officials.
I don't really know what else to say at this point. It's always difficult to argue with someone who has such a lousy grasp of reason. Maybe that's what happened at Brian's store. Maybe the person you were arguing with was actually just perplexed with the odd, smug man.
Anyway, good luck with whatever it is you're attempting to do.
2: Some spelling tips:
"neandrethal" - The word is "Neanderthal." Note the spelling and the capital "N."
"posure," "posures" - should be "poseurs," "poseurs"
"biggot," "biggotry" = There only needs to be one 'g' there, big guy.
"segregationistic" is not a word, no matter how badly you want it to be.
"recommend" only has one 'c', but that could have been a typo, I suppose. God knows I have typos all the time. Can't begrudge a man that.
"fundamenatlist" - I think you mean: "fundamentalist." At first I thought this might be a typo, too, but you use it a couple of times and it's spelled the same way both times.
3: Where the hell did you learn to punctuate? Are you just addicted to the space bar or something? Or maybe all of the chest pounding about how smart you are is nothing more than temper tantrum?
4: Not all detractors to Christianity are Pagans. Don't make assumptions.
5: "When the Gothic Community started back in 1982". I wasn't in Knoxville at the time, and if I had been, I would have been 12. I doubt I would have been a Goth, or anything other than the really awkward fuzzy-headed kid that I was. I was in to the Goth/Club scene there quite a bit later; some time around '87, '88. I'm having trouble believing there was any kind of Goth "Community" in '82, given the size of the crowd around '88. Like I said, though, I wasn't there. Anyway, I do remember fights around the time that I was there. These almost always involved rednecks or frat boys who either wandered in to our clearly pissed on territory, or we did so in to theirs. The thing is, except for once, I never actually got in to any of those fights. There was a few close calls, but those would always be broken up before any blows were thrown.
6: "The very thing we represented in Knoxville was acceptance and inclusion , because the redneck assholes we had chose to differentiate ourselves from , were exclusionistic and not willing to accept change in any form" Do you even see all of the logical errors in that statement? You represented inclusion, but differentiated yourself from at least one specific group, and then were upset that they excluded you. Double-yoo-tee-eff?
7: "Your responses show that you are posures or ignorant of your own religious tenants." I'm assuming that you're talking to the other Christians who made such lousy attempts to stick up for themselves in that thread. That's a pretty typical response of Christians: "You aren't acting the way I think you should act, therefore, you don't believe in Christ the proper way. Here, let me explain to you where you've gone wrong." I'm fairly certain that this is your view, given your earlier statement of, "It is absolutely essential that Christians be educated as to the true nature and facts of their own beliefs." I hear crap like that and I immediately translate it to, "If you want to claim that you belong to our special club, you must see that there is only one way to think, and that way is by my definition!"
That last point is the one I mainly wanted to make. You really seem to have some seriously flawed reasoning. I'm wondering if maybe you've ever read any Richard Dawkins, Douglas Hofstadter, or anything that challenges your own views. Or is it too dark with your head that far up your ass?
I see this line of reason a lot in both the Christian culture, and amongst a lot of young Goths. It really is the definition of needing someone else to do your thinking for you.
You don't even seem to be able to follow your own rules. Telling people not to label, not to discriminate, but then actually stating that they should discriminate against the people you tell them they should.
8: "Their is no room for this type of behavior . It is the behavior of terrorists , race haters , Nazis , etc. . Discrimination is not the ear mark of the intellectually gifted , but the intellectually challenged." First: the word you're looking for here is "there," not "their." Secondly, I want to point out that Hitler was a Christian, as are most people who identify themselves as white supremacists. Also, to my knowledge there has never been an atheist, pagan, or Buddhist inspired terrorist attack, although some nice Muslims did decide to blow up some of the most ancient Buddhist statues in the world last year, and of course there were those pesky Christians who bombed abortion clinics and sent Anthrax to our elected officials.
I don't really know what else to say at this point. It's always difficult to argue with someone who has such a lousy grasp of reason. Maybe that's what happened at Brian's store. Maybe the person you were arguing with was actually just perplexed with the odd, smug man.
Anyway, good luck with whatever it is you're attempting to do.
The firemen came and broke through the chimney top. And me and Mom were expecting them to pull out a dead cat or a bird. And instead they pulled out my father. He was dressed in a Santa Claus suit. He'd been climbing down the chimney... his arms loaded with presents. He was gonna surprise us. He slipped and broke his neck. He died instantly. And that's how I found out there was no Santa Claus.
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vertigo25
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I was going to just let this go, letting you keep prattling on, but I was sitting here waiting for my girlfriend to call so we can go see The Notorious Bettie Page, and figured I still had some time to continue my crusade of becoming the biggest prick on the internet. Given that you also seem to be on this quest, as well as vying for the title of "Smartest Idiot," I just have to comment.
Although "exclusionistic," and "inclusionistic" art technically words, they're kind of like the word, "ironical." Sure... they're words, but you sound stupid when you say them; especially when you use them completely, totally, and unabashedly incorrectly.
"Inclusionism," in particular, doesn't mean what I think you think it means. Basically it states that all religious systems are equally valid unless proven otherwise. In modern times the test has generally been, "can this religion be disproved via the scientific method?" The Hindu faith is a pretty good example of inclusionism.
It's important to note that being inclusionist is not nearly the same as being tolerant. Inclusionism pretty much says, "we're all the same," whereas tolerance says, "we're different, but that's okay."
This is, of course, an oversimplification of the subject, but I thought it best to keep it on a very basic level for you.
Although "exclusionistic," and "inclusionistic" art technically words, they're kind of like the word, "ironical." Sure... they're words, but you sound stupid when you say them; especially when you use them completely, totally, and unabashedly incorrectly.
"Inclusionism," in particular, doesn't mean what I think you think it means. Basically it states that all religious systems are equally valid unless proven otherwise. In modern times the test has generally been, "can this religion be disproved via the scientific method?" The Hindu faith is a pretty good example of inclusionism.
It's important to note that being inclusionist is not nearly the same as being tolerant. Inclusionism pretty much says, "we're all the same," whereas tolerance says, "we're different, but that's okay."
This is, of course, an oversimplification of the subject, but I thought it best to keep it on a very basic level for you.
The firemen came and broke through the chimney top. And me and Mom were expecting them to pull out a dead cat or a bird. And instead they pulled out my father. He was dressed in a Santa Claus suit. He'd been climbing down the chimney... his arms loaded with presents. He was gonna surprise us. He slipped and broke his neck. He died instantly. And that's how I found out there was no Santa Claus.
With under 20 posts...I think that you have no place to judge us as a community...espicially on subject matter such as religion...and you absolutly have no right to come in and start name calling simply due to your lack of vocabulary.
If you want a Christian Goth Community...
Check MySpace.
Start your own.
Just leave our peaceful community out of it.
This board has been around for quite a few years, and no one has ever been denied the right to express their religion (obviously due to your post) nor have they been banned due to religous affiliation (obviously since you walked in, started attacking, and you're still allowed to log in)
I belive that you are one of the people that said user was refering to with the comment...
"I have a right to disciminate against ignorant people "
Not someone with learning disabilities. Double check the defination of "ignorant" and the defination of "stupid"
I'll let you judge which one you are.
If you want a Christian Goth Community...
Check MySpace.
Start your own.
Just leave our peaceful community out of it.
This board has been around for quite a few years, and no one has ever been denied the right to express their religion (obviously due to your post) nor have they been banned due to religous affiliation (obviously since you walked in, started attacking, and you're still allowed to log in)
I belive that you are one of the people that said user was refering to with the comment...
"I have a right to disciminate against ignorant people "
Not someone with learning disabilities. Double check the defination of "ignorant" and the defination of "stupid"
I'll let you judge which one you are.
"It was inappropiate and definatly hott..."
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vertigo25
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Vampilot wrote:***clap-clap-clap-clap***
vertigo..you are my new gawd.....
-v
I'm not a god... I'm the patron saint of ass-holes. But I accept all worshipers... as long as they make their proper tithing
You know... the main thing that upsets me about this kind of crap isn't the religious belief. It's that things like this yahoo's post make me realize that this country is under attack.
It's not belief that is under attack. It's not just atheists, scientists, secularists, pagans, and other non-Christians that are under attack. It's pragmatism and reason.
It's getting so bad that even within non-Christian belief systems you're getting the same diatribe of belief over reason. Christians and Muslims, in my experience, are the worst. Using everything from scare-tactics to self validation and even outright lies to get people to believe rather than think.
Not only do these institutions dictate what you should believe, but through their propaganda style methods, they make sure that you know there will be dire consequences for questioning or disavowing those beliefs.
The last time this happened anywhere near the scale that it is happening now, they burned down the Library at Alexandria and set off the Dark Ages.
People. They are teaching creationism in public schools.
Logic's funeral will be soon if we don't break out of this downward spiral.
There is a difference in religion and the more pragmatic philosophies like atheism, Buddhism, and skepticsm in that those philosophies suggest methods of thinking, rather than dictating what to think. My agenda is not to end religious belief, or to have people become atheists, Buddhists, skeptics, etc. My desire is to see people accept the principles of reason; to learn the skills of critical thinking and logical reasoning. Now, more than ever, we need to learn to question authority. We must learn to question anyone who tells us there is no need to examine or test our beliefs because they have done our thinking for us.
NoBoogerMan: I'm going to get that book. Today, hopefully. I read what seemed to be a good dissection of it at Scott Bidstrup's Homepage. Unfortunately most of his examination of the book makes references to particular passages of the book, but he doesn't quote them. Besides, I should read it and judge it for myself.
The firemen came and broke through the chimney top. And me and Mom were expecting them to pull out a dead cat or a bird. And instead they pulled out my father. He was dressed in a Santa Claus suit. He'd been climbing down the chimney... his arms loaded with presents. He was gonna surprise us. He slipped and broke his neck. He died instantly. And that's how I found out there was no Santa Claus.
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NoBoogerMan
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Gothic Christian Challenge
Thanks for the English and Grammar lessons . It's amazing how you missed the point . I will be more clear . The entire Christian faiht and it's followers caame under attack in the thread I mentioned . I apologize for the emotional tone in this initial posting . I should not label people . I was really trying to label behavior and , amittedly, fell inot my own trap . The point I was making is this . Is it right to discriminate against people for their religious beliefs ? Especially if they do not try to influence you into believing the same thing ? Is it the nature of this community to act just as the people they profess to despise ?
My comment about , "following your own tenants" was aimed at the pagan atacks and the attackers . I understand the Wicka belief and their commentaries are out of line with that belief .
If you think the answer to any of the questions I posed , is yes . Well , I'm glad You have to be You . I guess it's ok to attack things you really have not researched very deeply . At least that's what many of you did . Yes there was a considerable community here in Knoxville in 1982 . They were sophisticated people . They were elegant . The difference between now and then is remarkable . That community is gone now and there is no sign of it . Until now , I felt a kinship to this community . I'm sorry any of you have to tear down that which you do not understand . I'm sorry for you that you have to hold hate against others for their beliefs . My challenge for debate still stands . My commitment for those who would like to explore their faith in a practical , academic and theological manner still stands , and the opposition drives me to help it breath . Thank you , all detractors , for strengthening my resolve .
Betty Page is a CHRISTIAN that now lives in California . Her brother is in Nashville . She is not ashamed of her modeling carrer and has no reason to be ashamed . She was HOT ! God made her that way ! She said she does regret the nudity . I don't
My comment about , "following your own tenants" was aimed at the pagan atacks and the attackers . I understand the Wicka belief and their commentaries are out of line with that belief .
If you think the answer to any of the questions I posed , is yes . Well , I'm glad You have to be You . I guess it's ok to attack things you really have not researched very deeply . At least that's what many of you did . Yes there was a considerable community here in Knoxville in 1982 . They were sophisticated people . They were elegant . The difference between now and then is remarkable . That community is gone now and there is no sign of it . Until now , I felt a kinship to this community . I'm sorry any of you have to tear down that which you do not understand . I'm sorry for you that you have to hold hate against others for their beliefs . My challenge for debate still stands . My commitment for those who would like to explore their faith in a practical , academic and theological manner still stands , and the opposition drives me to help it breath . Thank you , all detractors , for strengthening my resolve .
Betty Page is a CHRISTIAN that now lives in California . Her brother is in Nashville . She is not ashamed of her modeling carrer and has no reason to be ashamed . She was HOT ! God made her that way ! She said she does regret the nudity . I don't
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vertigo25
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Tell you what. We'll debate. We can debate the merits and flaws of religion vs. skepticism. But first, I'll make you a deal. I'm going to read The Case For God. I'd like for you to read A Devil’s Chaplain by Richard Dawkins.
We can debate the books, if you'd like, but what I'd really like to get out of it is the knowledge that we both at least have some insight in to the other's view.
As for the main point of your original post: No... I don't believe I missed it, but there was obviously more than one point there. I even addressed your main point. I just decided to address others as well. The point I was making about the grammar, spelling, punctuation, misuse of terms, etc., was that it is very bad form to initiate an argument with a presumption and assertion of intellectual superiority. In doing so, you open yourself up to attacks on that level.
To answer your question as to whether or not it's okay to discriminate against others for their religious beliefs, of course the answer is "no." However, there has been no discrimination here or in the other thread. There has been hate and even name-calling, but not discrimination. No one has told you or anyone else that they can not believe what you believe.
There have been prejudices. This is true on both sides of this little fight, though. I admit to having a certain disdain for Christian thought, and that does cause certain prejudices to arise when talking about the subject. But alas, I feel no real guilt about it. I have a few very Christian friends. In fact, one of my best friends in the world is a Christian Republican DCS case worker. All of those are causes which make my hair stand on end, but I love her dearly. Mainly because over the years, we've found a certain respect of each other's beliefs, and neither of us feel that our way is the only right way.
There have been suggestions that you leave if you don't like the environment, but I see nothing wrong with these suggestions and you should not either, given that you have made the same suggestion to others.
Anyway...
I don't personally care whether you leave or stay. You've certainly made things more interesting than usual, and I always like the challenge of out 'assholing' someone.
We can debate the books, if you'd like, but what I'd really like to get out of it is the knowledge that we both at least have some insight in to the other's view.
As for the main point of your original post: No... I don't believe I missed it, but there was obviously more than one point there. I even addressed your main point. I just decided to address others as well. The point I was making about the grammar, spelling, punctuation, misuse of terms, etc., was that it is very bad form to initiate an argument with a presumption and assertion of intellectual superiority. In doing so, you open yourself up to attacks on that level.
To answer your question as to whether or not it's okay to discriminate against others for their religious beliefs, of course the answer is "no." However, there has been no discrimination here or in the other thread. There has been hate and even name-calling, but not discrimination. No one has told you or anyone else that they can not believe what you believe.
There have been prejudices. This is true on both sides of this little fight, though. I admit to having a certain disdain for Christian thought, and that does cause certain prejudices to arise when talking about the subject. But alas, I feel no real guilt about it. I have a few very Christian friends. In fact, one of my best friends in the world is a Christian Republican DCS case worker. All of those are causes which make my hair stand on end, but I love her dearly. Mainly because over the years, we've found a certain respect of each other's beliefs, and neither of us feel that our way is the only right way.
There have been suggestions that you leave if you don't like the environment, but I see nothing wrong with these suggestions and you should not either, given that you have made the same suggestion to others.
Anyway...
I don't personally care whether you leave or stay. You've certainly made things more interesting than usual, and I always like the challenge of out 'assholing' someone.
The firemen came and broke through the chimney top. And me and Mom were expecting them to pull out a dead cat or a bird. And instead they pulled out my father. He was dressed in a Santa Claus suit. He'd been climbing down the chimney... his arms loaded with presents. He was gonna surprise us. He slipped and broke his neck. He died instantly. And that's how I found out there was no Santa Claus.
Thread locked - because it's opening post is badly written, inflammatory, and started by someone with a post count less than 10.
Jumping into this forum and starting out with a flame is a good way to get yourself declared a troll, and banned.
Consider yourself warned.
Jumping into this forum and starting out with a flame is a good way to get yourself declared a troll, and banned.
Consider yourself warned.
We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.
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