my viewpoint, not trying to make enemies

tat2jay · Post by **tat2jay** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:46 pm

barry - sorry about that, my mistake, i will not use your experiences in my explinations again, i was only attempting to address what had been said - i did not say what you did was right or wrong or that the reactions to what you did where right or wrong, i just pointed out that its understandable that the club wouldnt be cool with it. your name was only briefly mentioned cuz you just happened to be the one that passed out the fliers,
my post had nothing to do with the events that followed the actual handing out of the fliers
sorry if have stepped on your toes on this one
it was never my intent to make you feel like i was using you for the sake of my own arguement

Mercurygriffin · Post by **Mercurygriffin** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:16 pm

The dance floor is what brings the money. You dance, you get thursty, you drink, you dance, you get thursty again, you drink more, you lose your inhabitions, you dance more, you grope someone, and where it goes from there is your call. The club stuff I always leave to the personel of the establishment. I have done hte DJ thing a few times (back at the lava) and I also agree that it is harder than most think. I also have to strees that the venues as a rule only give a shit about your drama when it comes to blows or something in those lines. I think personaly that everyone needs to just leave the shit alone. And Barry, I know that you know you my boy but, you are over-promoting yourself. Are you promoting yourself now? The poeple involved in any drama need to work it out themselves and everyone else just needs to drink, dance, and be pretentious.

Mother Mo · Post by **Mother Mo** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:09 pm

This feels like everyone is venting their past grievances in preparation for the new year. Cool. Maybe that means we'll all be dropping the bullshit then? It is cyclical, I know. It's like the goths get their fucking period every few months & have to whine about crap. Suck it up, walk it off, fucking deal! As bad as it's ever been, it's still great. The scene thrives & we have the luxury of enjoying the fruits of other peoples' labors.

There is no evil, diabolical plot to exclude the community from making decisions. Start your own night/forum & get your own power. The KGB are not bad people. They are some of the most selfless individuals I've ever known. Sure, every now & again the bullshit becomes overwhelming & one of them may turn around & piss you off for a change, but when you add it all up they are truly good people who are entitled to an occasional bad day. I've never known them to do anything that any of them didn't feel they had damn good reason to do.

What's not so cool is all this drama mongering. Maybe we should spike the drinks of everyone at the next event with Midol or something. But that wouldn't really help, since the most of the complaining seems to come from folks who rarely come out. Dammit!

Jonathon, Jason, & Andrew... I love you guys. You bend over backward to accomodate as many folks as you can & still maintain your own personal lives & jobs. I'm grateful for your sacrifices & hard work & I know lots of other folks who feel the same. Being in the positions you're in makes you targets for every grumpy son of a biscuit that comes through the door, yet still you push on. I know you've all three had days when you asked yourselves why the hell you even bother. But then you remember that it's for the community... even the evil little shits that do nothing but bitch within the community. Because for every loud mouth know-it-all that wants to fling some poo, there's several more that just want to dance, drink, & say thanks for providing us with a really great time.

So, finish up with belly achin' already. The New Year's almost here & we got better things to do.

tat2jay · Post by **tat2jay** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:19 pm

actually i dont see very much of this as drama mongering or belly aching, i see a lot of it as cleansing and theraputic.
i dont feel bad about posting what i did, i feel pretty good about it, i feel so fresh and so clean clean

i think people are just getting things off their chest and clearing the air, i really think this is going to be very good for all of us in the long run

X · Post by X » Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:56 pm

Just for the cleanup on isle 5, jay, it wasn't you i was particuarly aiming that at, as you were stating your opinion on what caustic wrote. It was geared more towards he, or anyone else who has backed up an arguement with "oh yeah remember that one time barry had this happen to him"

simple fact of meaning an argument, is pure psychology...just like while i am wrestling, you'll see me work on one body part, this should be the same while arguing. Pick a subject, and go. Don't work the leg, then start working the arm midway thru the match, just to return to the leg after 5 mins of work.

if that made sense, you are better than i am.

i am also still a firm believer in people should take time to back up their arguments with fail proof logic, before they raise their voice to make an impact.

Mother Mo · Post by **Mother Mo** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:17 pm

tat2jay wrote:actually i dont see very much of this as drama mongering or belly aching, i see a lot of it as cleansing and theraputic.
i dont feel bad about posting what i did, i feel pretty good about it, i feel so fresh and so clean clean

i think people are just getting things off their chest and clearing the air, i really think this is going to be very good for all of us in the long run

Agreed, to a point. I'm glad you feel good, Jay. You're a great guy & you've done so many positive things for the community. I just get so tired of hearing the same handful of people complaining about the same stuff they've never been happy about as if somehow making more noise will make it all better. They would do well to follow your lead & see the scene & it's contents as gifts... something to be grateful for. When the Temple & Urban nights conflicted, you & Bone both handled the situation like professionals, reminding everyone of both nights in the same breath & being cool no matter what folks did.

Seems like alot of the complaints stem from petty bullshit & politics. I hate this crap of "I'm not going to Sanctus because someone associated with it stepped on my buddy's toes!" Well, your buddy has really big feet & stands in the way... it was bound to happen.

Please forgive me if I offended you in any way, Jay. I respect you enormously... right along with KGB. I know you weren't belly achin' at all, but the topic nicely covers all past moanin' & groanin' about a variety of issues that I'm just plain sick of. Black Balls, flyers, email lists, & DJ egocentrism be damned. I've reached my toxicity level for it a long time ago. You're a good guy for trying to untangle the knots, but the same ones tend to just tangle themselves back up again later. (It's like a kinky perversion... they just like to be in knots!)

Maybe you'll have better luck with the whole diplomacy thing though. Damn, if anybody could even do it, it'd have to be you, man.

Coor · Post by **Coor** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:29 pm

I just don't understand, It maybe due to the fact that I am so long, and I haven't been fucking since the day I hit puberty

, but if people keep fucking going off like this, then there won't be a SINGLE night in Knoxville soon. Would you want to put up with half of the shit that the KGB does? People ALWAYS having their opinion, which of course is the right one, and talking shit about you everytime you turn your back?

I just look at it like this. Running a board is a shit ton of work, espicially when you have a family, and work. Yea, yea we could all do it better, but none of us do. Except Erin, which it is a nice board, it was an exclusive board for a long time, which seems that many new members are forgetting.

I have no quarrel with anyone. I just think that if people keep going on about how they could "do it better," we aren't going to have shit. There is an ADMN forum, and also PM boxes that you could contact the KGB with, WHEN you have a problem. Why do people CAUSE drama by running to their friends, and dismissing the source? Then again, that is the cool thing to do if you are goth. At least in my experiances with people.

Also, while we are on the subject. People who bitch about the venue. Blue Cats is considered one of the best night clubs in this area, we should be lucky that we get our night there.

OK, I'm done. I just wish people would realize the long term effects of drama like this.

rec|use · Post by **rec|use** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:50 pm

Blue Cats is considered one of the best night clubs in this area,

i'm partial to the pilot light myself

and i miss the mercury
being home last weekend made me really miss it

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:29 pm

Nephilim wrote: a DJs job is the dance floor.

But it's not the DJ's fault if the attendees of any given night are extremely picky about what they will or won't dance to.

When I DJ'd at The End, I had a couple dozen people dancing to Clear Horizon, which I'm utterly certain none of them had ever heard before. I'd like to see that kind of open-mindedness at Sanctus, rather than what seems to be a somewhat pouty resistance to dancing to anything they don't know the lyrics to.

Nephilim · Post by **Nephilim** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:41 pm

Jack wrote:But it's not the DJ's fault if the attendees of any given night are extremely picky about what they will or won't dance to.

When I DJ'd at The End, I had a couple dozen people dancing to Clear Horizon, which I'm utterly certain none of them had ever heard before. I'd like to see that kind of open-mindedness at Sanctus, rather than what seems to be a somewhat pouty resistance to dancing to anything they don't know the lyrics to.

That is true. Which is why when Jimmy or I play new stuff we generally play it once, then continually work it in over then next few weeks or so. Sometimes it takes a while, sometimes they dance to it right off, but eventually they will start dancing to it.

Unfortunately, being a once-a-month event Sanctus doesn't really have that luxury.

JaNell · Post by **JaNell** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:45 pm

Arkady wrote:
Shadow wrote:I have a question.

Why not expand the KGB board of Directors?
.

I don't believe you understand the nature of the "KGBâ€

BearDragonLady · Post by **BearDragonLady** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:42 pm

kudos to those who give a well thought out response.. it's such a novelty now-a-days!

I'll throw in my own two cents for what it's worth:
yes, there will always be drama, hell, I've seen it from the inside and out and, frankly, where there are people involved, there will always be personality clashes and mudslinging... it's human nature. Man, I can't even count how many people in this scene despise me and most of them don't even really know me, just make their decisions based on assumptions and things they don't even understand... oh, well *shrug* that's life... and the same thing happens to the kg and other boards as well...
I've never let that stop me from going out and having a good time (I may let issues in my private life stop me, but never what's going on in the scene) I've been to sanctus and the end and asylum and temple and whatever else is thrown out there for general consumption and I have to say that I really appreciate all the efforts of everyone involved... I certainly would have said fuck it a long time ago (and that goes for both sides of the division)...
djing- well, damn I think it's definitely more difficult than most people think...
yes, there needs to be new music, yes- there needs to be older music- my thoughts on the matter are this:
I love the older stuff because I know it and there are certain feelings/experiences associated with it that are wonderful and allow me to flow with it
I love the newer music because it gives me a chance to experience new things, but it will take a couple times being played before I dance to it- there is a very simple reason for this- if I'm drunk and the music is unfamiliar, a change in tempo could leave me sprawled on the floor

(not that that takes much)...
Hell, I love it when celticsmith or fallen give me knew things to listen to before they get a chance to play them on the dance floor. It means I get a chance to feel it and thereby dance to more of their set...
I do, however, enjoy a respite every once in a while, which means the dj's should occassionally play something that, while nice, doesn't necessarily tickle my fancy (otherwise, there'd be passed out bear on the dance floor) OMG! Can everyone know how hard it must be to balance the two????
Regardless, I truly appreciate those who have put their time and effort into all the club nights and djing- wish there wasn't so much in-fighting, but, as stated previously, it's human nature...
okay, now a line to offend a lot of people:
you notice a lot of the infighting is mostly men

and they say women are bad (okay, I know that's not necessarily accurate, but damn it's fun to say) :P~

Post by **Arkady** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:31 pm

Nephilim wrote:
Arkady, those two posts above mine rock (when are Jimmy and I going to be able to get you out to NV one night to DJ?)

I suppose it's about time isn't.

I'd love to set that up. Perhaps it can be arranged post January. :up:

Nephilim · Post by **Nephilim** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:21 pm

Excellent, I'll smack Jimmy around until he gets in touch with you.

4X541N7 · Post by **4X541N7** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:04 am

Look....

I have not-a-reason to bitch...I belong to this board....For a reason...I post on here...For a reason...I attend Sanctus...FOR A REASON!!!...If you don't post here...Whatever...If you don't attend Sanctus...Whatever...I have had several of my posts deleted from this board...But have had no other 'run-ins' with the KGB...I agree strongly with the First Amendment...But honestly..Who gives a fuck about all of this...I'm not here to start shit with anyone...I just want to speak my peace...Honestly, those of you who have a problem with KG & The KGB...Grow-up, or start your own board, & night....This is a fucking 'scene'...Let's start treating it like that, & stop acting like it's our new government.........

*Attention: If any of this in incoherant, or otherwise, sounding of low-intellegence...I'm half asleep*

Thor · Post by **Thor** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:20 am

Sorry double post

Thor · Post by **Thor** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:31 am

AXSaint wrote:Look....

I have not-a-reason to bitch...I belong to this board....For a reason...I post on here...For a reason...I attend Sanctus...FOR A REASON!!!...If you don't post here...Whatever...If you don't attend Sanctus...Whatever...I have had several of my posts deleted from this board...But have had no other 'run-ins' with the KGB...I agree strongly with the First Amendment...But honestly..Who gives a fuck about all of this...I'm not here to start shit with anyone...I just want to speak my peace...Honestly, those of you who have a problem with KG & The KGB...Grow-up, or start your own board, & night....This is a fucking 'scene'...Let's start treating it like that, & stop acting like it's our new government.........

*Attention: If any of this in incoherant, or otherwise, sounding of low-intellegence...I'm half asleep*

I'm 1/2 asleep too :-(

velocity · Post by **velocity** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:54 pm

First I will include the whole post, as it needs to be read contiguously for context. Then I will respond to it piece by piece.

Arkady wrote:(side note)
And before it even comes up lets address the KGB and Erin Redd. She was a good friend of Jonathan's and offered to help us when we were staring out. The fact is, early on she contributed allot. She designed the KG site on her own time for no pay and helped come up with ideas for themes for the parties as well as doing allot of the dirty work implementing those themes. For that, we are eternally grateful.

We however were not grateful when after she left the KGB; the father of her first child (whom Jonathan had up unto that point been also been good friends with for years) hacked into KG and maliciously stole everyone's email addresses. Knowing that kind of adds a new dimension to the KF v/s KG thing, huh? Imagine one of your best friends who is desperate to save his dying relationship with your now ex-business partner, stabbing you in the back by hacking your site and trying to smear your name. And what for? So he can earn brownie points too little too late with his soon to be ex. And thuss a rift is born.
(/side note)

Now please allow me to dissect this:

Arkady wrote:And before it even comes up lets address the KGB and Erin Redd. She was a good friend of Jonathan's and offered to help us when we were staring out. The fact is, early on she contributed allot. She designed the KG site on her own time for no pay and helped come up with ideas for themes for the parties as well as doing allot of the dirty work implementing those themes. For that, we are eternally grateful.

As you should be. You, to this day, really have no idea how much work she put into it.

Arkady wrote:We however were not grateful when after she left the KGB; the father of her first child (whom Jonathan had up unto that point been also been good friends with for years)

That would be me, Hillary.

Jonathan and myself are still good friends. We have discussed this and I think we at least understand each others point of view.

Arkady wrote:hacked into KG and maliciously stole everyone's email addresses.

I did not hack anything, nor did I use the additional permissions that Jonathan had entrusted me with obtain the information.

I do not see how emailing folks to advise them of a last minute move of event could possibly contain malice. The truth is that I did what I did to prevent petty fighting between rival goth boards from effecting the many innocent people that were simply going out for a good time.

Arkady wrote:Knowing that kind of adds a new dimension to the KF v/s KG thing, huh?

The "KF v/s KG thing" was going strong since long before this incident.

Arkady wrote:Imagine one of your best friends who is desperate to save his dying relationship with your now ex-business partner, stabbing you in the back by hacking your site and trying to smear your name.

There was no hacking, He is still one of my best friends, and I in no way smeared his name that I am aware of.

Arkady wrote:And what for? So he can earn brownie points too little too late with his soon to be ex.

As you are neither my friend, nor my counselor, I would love to know where you get your insight as to my relationship status ?

In actuality by this time Erin was happily married and having her second child and I was in another relationship. I can assure you that I had no amorous feelings towards Erin.

Arkady wrote:And thuss a rift is born.

Jason, the rift was a chasm long, long before this.

Arkady wrote:Let me make a quick note as an admin here; this thread currently is well within the rules. Let's just keep it that way. No personal attacks and keep it civil. That's all I ask.

And how is this "Side Note", one that really has no relevance to the rest of your post I might add, not a personal attack ?

iblis · Post by **iblis** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:44 pm

velocity wrote:
Arkady wrote:We however were not grateful when after she left the KGB; the father of her first child (whom Jonathan had up unto that point been also been good friends with for years) hacked into KG and maliciously stole everyone's email addresses.

That would be me, Hillary.

Jonathan and myself are still good friends. We have discussed this and I think we at least understand each others point of view.

I did not hack anything, nor did I use the additional permissions that Jonathan had entrusted me with obtain the information.

I do not see how emailing folks to advise them of a last minute move of event could possibly contain malice. The truth is that I did what I did to prevent petty fighting between rival goth boards from effecting the many innocent people that were simply going out for a good time.

Without knowing the technical details, I'd be hard pressed to decide, myself, if that was malicious crackingÂ¹. I mean, there are a lot of if's and but's when one tries to decide something is done with malicious intent, or not.

For example, if you found and/or exploited a breach of security in the software, be it using a browser or some other client program you've hackedÂ² together, that could be considered malicious. Unless, of course, you went and talked with Jonathan about said breach afterwards, and hell, possibly told him how to fix it.

That last part could put a whole new spin on things, too.

Like I said, defining "malicious intrusion" versus "simple greyhat curiousity" can be very iffy grounds.

Regardless of all that, I can trust Jonathan's judgement as to whether this was an undesirable intrusion or not.

<rant>
Â¹ For those uninitiated: cracking is not the same as hacking. Cracking gets you in, can get you out, and often does involve malicious intent, and quite often doesn't require much in the way of how the system works - this is generally referred to as being a "script kiddie". (That last part is a moot point in this situation, of course, as I know that Hillary knows his way in and out of a *NIX server.)

But cracking can also be a wonderful tool to help a friend out and let them know what could happen, and again, how to fix the problem/security hole itself.

Â² Hacking, on the other hand, requires a more in-depth knowledge of the system, and usually requires at least some background knowledge of programming. For example, if Hillary had written software that allowed him to access KG's SQL server, thereby granting him access to the server's cache of e-mail addresses, that would be hacking. Not the usage of the aforementioned program, but the creation of it. The usage could be simply experimental, or it could be defined above, as cracking.
</rant>

Post by **Arkady** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:12 pm

velocity wrote:First I will include the whole post, as it needs to be read contiguously for context. Then I will respond to it piece by piece.

Arkady wrote:(side note)
And before it even comes up lets address the KGB and Erin Redd. She was a good friend of Jonathan's and offered to help us when we were staring out. The fact is, early on she contributed allot. She designed the KG site on her own time for no pay and helped come up with ideas for themes for the parties as well as doing allot of the dirty work implementing those themes. For that, we are eternally grateful.

We however were not grateful when after she left the KGB; the father of her first child (whom Jonathan had up unto that point been also been good friends with for years) hacked into KG and maliciously stole everyone's email addresses. Knowing that kind of adds a new dimension to the KF v/s KG thing, huh? Imagine one of your best friends who is desperate to save his dying relationship with your now ex-business partner, stabbing you in the back by hacking your site and trying to smear your name. And what for? So he can earn brownie points too little too late with his soon to be ex. And thuss a rift is born.
(/side note)

Now please allow me to dissect this:

Arkady wrote:And before it even comes up lets address the KGB and Erin Redd. She was a good friend of Jonathan's and offered to help us when we were staring out. The fact is, early on she contributed allot. She designed the KG site on her own time for no pay and helped come up with ideas for themes for the parties as well as doing allot of the dirty work implementing those themes. For that, we are eternally grateful.

As you should be. You, to this day, really have no idea how much work she put into it.

Arkady wrote:We however were not grateful when after she left the KGB; the father of her first child (whom Jonathan had up unto that point been also been good friends with for years)

That would be me, Hillary.

Jonathan and myself are still good friends. We have discussed this and I think we at least understand each others point of view.

Arkady wrote:hacked into KG and maliciously stole everyone's email addresses.

I did not hack anything, nor did I use the additional permissions that Jonathan had entrusted me with obtain the information.

I do not see how emailing folks to advise them of a last minute move of event could possibly contain malice. The truth is that I did what I did to prevent petty fighting between rival goth boards from effecting the many innocent people that were simply going out for a good time.

Arkady wrote:Knowing that kind of adds a new dimension to the KF v/s KG thing, huh?

The "KF v/s KG thing" was going strong since long before this incident.

Arkady wrote:Imagine one of your best friends who is desperate to save his dying relationship with your now ex-business partner, stabbing you in the back by hacking your site and trying to smear your name.

There was no hacking, He is still one of my best friends, and I in no way smeared his name that I am aware of.

Arkady wrote:And what for? So he can earn brownie points too little too late with his soon to be ex.

As you are neither my friend, nor my counselor, I would love to know where you get your insight as to my relationship status ?

In actuality by this time Erin was happily married and having her second child and I was in another relationship. I can assure you that I had no amorous feelings towards Erin.

Arkady wrote:And thuss a rift is born.

Jason, the rift was a chasm long, long before this.

Arkady wrote:Let me make a quick note as an admin here; this thread currently is well within the rules. Let's just keep it that way. No personal attacks and keep it civil. That's all I ask.

And how is this "Side Note", one that really has no relevance to the rest of your post I might add, not a personal attack ?

Well, I suppose we have several differances in opinion then. :shrug:

I'm glad you and Jonathan were able to mend your relationship.

As to whether or not what I posted is a personal attack: I did not call you out by name nor did I state anything that was not directly related to me by people involved in the mess at the time. I will admit that the "insight" into your relationship at the time was purely opinion on my part based on observation and conversation that happened at that time. While I don't apologise for my opinion I do apologise for posting it here.