my viewpoint, not trying to make enemies

[tat2jay]

i am back home
our car is totally dead in virginia
we are alive and healthy
i made figgy pudding from scratch (oh yes monkeys i will be making this dish for you soon, if you havent had it before prepare to have your world rocked)
and i need a job badly (first on my list of things to do this week)
but all in all, things arent so bad,
i have my health, my friends, and my family

now, on to stuff i didnt want to have to address but it has been brought to my attention that people assume that i am aligned one way or another on this topic and for the most part no one has asked me about it directly but a few have asked my opinion on the situation
so here it goes

Caustic Vs Knoxgothic

first, let it be known that i consider myself very good friends with both jason (arkady) and adam (caustic) and general friends with andrew (bone) and i can get along with jonthan (vader) (yes we have had our differences in the past but i tend to be able to move on from those kinds of things).

so with that known let me deal with some stuffs here

first, a lot of this got ignited by the knoxgothic camera policy, which i dont agree with, personally issues with photos and the photographed individual should be dealt with between the individual and the photographer, in my opinion it is not the place of the venue to police that kind of issue, but i assume there are many factors i dont know about which prompted this from the Knoxgothic board of directors (KGB) made up of arkady, bone and vader.

part of the reason there tends to be a lot of poking and proding at what the kgb does i think is based on the fact that the kgb keeps a lot of things to themselves (information and facts that the general public are not aware of) now this has been their policy for a while and i am not saying its a bad policy, its just the way they decided to do things - they like to keep the underbelly of the work they do out of sight so that the general public only has to worry about having a good time and not having to worry about what they have to deal with.
like i said, this is not a bad policy, but it is not the way i do things, i like for people to be directly involved in what goes on as much as possible. i learned in the army that if you keep the troops in the dark about things they tend to think the worst and tend to rebel a bit. i am not saying my way is the right way, i am just saying that it seems to work for me with the knoxville gang (goths and non goths that attend our events)

now lets deal with what was said bit by bit:

making money at sanctus or anywhere else for that matter
it takes a lot more to set up and run a club night than people assume, even for the promoters - and lets say sanctus did bring in 200 people and the kgb got $500, power to them for that, but i know that i have had nights at temple where i get $300 and i have walked out with less than $20 -
the idea of doing all that work and only getting $20 for the work you did, well you know going into it what your going to get out of it, and if that isnt what you want then dont do it, its your call to make. no one is forcing you to do all that stuff, if you do it for the love of doing it then dont complain about it later, that was your choice to make -
maybe the kgb made out like gangbusters, maybe they should have paid their help more, then again maybe they were going home broke every night. my guess is that its somewhere in the middle

if you dont like the way things are being run, start your own thing.
jason bone and vader did it. tony erin and candice did it. i did it.
its very easy to yell from the sideline, thats why most people do it instead of starting their own thing. yeah i know time is a factor (work, wife, kids, school etc etc) but i have done much more than that at one time and still acomplished bigger things - its not impossible -
anyway all i am saying is get over the money thing, no one that does this business drives a mercedes (well almost no one) but the ones that start the club nights up are the ones that call the shots, thats just the way it is.

passing out CDs and the KGB getting upset about it:

ok this falls under the heading of "yeah, i can see that happening". i wasnt there so i dont know, but i can believe something like this would happen, the kgb like to be in control, no offense guys, but its true. and doing somthing they didnt say was ok would upset them just cuz it was somthing that wasnt in their control. this is the kind of thing the kgb does from time to time. they jump the gun and make a decision where all the options arent completly thought out and explored. is it right? no, i dont really think so. but its just they way they are sometimes.
and yes adam, you do bring new music to the scene, even though a lot of people fight it tooth and nail, you do your damnedist to make sure we get our dose of new stuff, thank you for that.
kgb guys are my age and if they were playing all the old stuff , then i would be. its what we grew up with, its what we like , its just our thing, but since they were doing that, they got it covered. personally i am trying to play a mix of all kinds of stuff cuz thats just the way i like it, another perk of having your own club night.

so was it wrong for the kgb to get upset about caustic passing out CDs? yeah, most likely
should adam have asked the kgb first before doing it? yeah, most likely.

as far as the black metallic guy passing out CDs? i dunno, maybe he asked for permission, maybe the stuff he burned was by smaller acts that wanted their stuff distributed that way, i just dont know. but it would seem that that the kgb was ok with it for a reason, maybe it would be best to ask them why.

KGB and other gothic events in this town:

the black ball and the end - erin quit working for sanctus ( a night she had a strong hand in building to its current success, no guys you cant deny that she played a huge role) due to a strong lack of support be it financial or emotional - that point is not for us to debate - just understand that they split ways in not the greatest of terms. now this would lead to where vader and i dont see eye to eye on some things - knoxgothic and the kgb had NEVER been supportive of any event that erin, tony, candace or anyone associated with erin tried to promote - this is fact.
there is bad blood between those two camps, no denying that.some of the things (not allowing the private forum which may not be named to be typed on the kg forum, banning members (like me), and not allowing cross promotion of events and the famous cancelled The End poster) basicly show me that they can be petty and bitter at times and do things that suck.

on the other hand -
i have been open and forthcoming with my event plans with the kgb to try to build a co-operative relationship. now i didnt have to do this. on the contrary i dont know that anyone else had approached them this way. but i did it cuz i knew that they had a well read forum, and a well attended club night, and i didnt want to start static. to build the scene means working together. this is not war, its a friggin club night.
so far it has worked pretty well

barry passing out The end fliers and the ashville fliers
that is a club policy and the promoters from the end knew they could not pass out fliers INSIDE the club cuz it is blue cats policy NOT to promote other clubs in the same town when blue cats has an event of its own going on. but promoting an event in another town is ok cuz the its not the same market, i totally understand this. thats why i dont take fliers to blue cats, but i do try to hit the parking lot.

now at this point caustic says that its possible the KGB was upset that i was starting temple and that they countered with their dance night at Urban.

this is an incorrect assumption

i started temple, bone attended the first one and told me they had been planning for some time on starting a weekly or bi weekly dance night at a different venue - i knew this while the end was going on actually, he called me later and i also talked to jason about it. they told me what they were doing and when they planned to do and that they planned to move it to friday nights in january so as NOT to compete with temple - i think that by being open and trying to have good solid lines of communication makes these things possible. maybe i am wrong, but thats how i feel.

i still totally disagree with some of the things vader does, banning, editing, deleting, false fliers, etc etc. but so far we have been civil to each other. and i hope it stays that way. but notice that i have been allowed to post about temple as much as i want on KG cuz i have tried to be open honest and most of all just have fun with it.

next topic "jason sitting idley by"

yes it does seem that he doesnt react to a lot of things that happen , in his defense he has had a busy year and does have a family to tend to. and he did contact me rather quickly when i was banned and did his best to fix the problem asap, but i will also say that it would have been nice to get a public apology for the false flier issue and for getting banned. not from jason but from the KGB as a whole. i dont expect that to happen. its not their M.O. - i know for a fact that jason will not make a KG decision with out consulting the KGB cuz that is the way they work. bone is the same way, i assume vader follows that rule also. so it would seem that the whole machine is slow cuz of so many moving parts. what am i saying here? im not sure, its late, im tired, but i know that there have been times i have said, "well i am glad jason contacted me so quickly about this issue" and there have been times i have said "why the hell didnt someone fix this sooner?!?"
maybe its not so much that he doesnt react, but more so that he will not do things without consulting the KGB -
not a bad idea so long as everyone is playing nice, but thats not always the case

the NASHVILLE night of hell
andrew called andrew and jimmy bit a cat someone one spilled a martini and a butterfly flapped its wings in central park. yeah im confused by all that stuff, i have basicly NO idea what really went down. but the best way to deal with that issue is if you think bone called someone and started some static, call bone and find out whats up from the source. taking it public before dealing with it man to man is just the wrong road to travel
maybe bone did some evil stuff, maybe he didnt, i dont know. but deal with it man to man then if you find out some evil went down, air that stuff out. if not, then figure out what happened before going off the handle.
i know you mentioned in your post you sent a msg to bone, but did you wait for a response before you posted your blog?

to summerize:
seems to me the drama machine is in full gear. both sides have a story to tell. and i am sure both are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
so it would be nice if caustic had dealt with this one on one with the parties involved first.
it would also be nice (now that this is all out in the public anyway) if all the parties involved would respond with well thought out and balanced dialog to try to find common ground. (basicly it would be nice if the KGB would change their policy and respond to this not from a totally defensive stance but from a well balanced point of view. i think jasons response to caustics post was not really the best way to deal with the situation. but thats his way of doing things, not mine, so im not going to damn him for it. maybe it would have been better to deal with his post point by point openly and honestly either in blog or on a forum thread on KG.
these are just my friendly suggestions, i do not mean for them to be personal attacks on anyone and i hope that after this is posted we can all remain friends.

Caustic will still be Djing at temple on saturday (if he still wants to after reading all this) and i will still talk music and hang out with jason and bone when the opportunity arisis (if they still want to after reading this)
we all have our own ways of dealing with things, and i would have kept all this to myself and kept on smiling but i was being questioned about all this by too many people to keep responding one on one, so i layed it out for everone to see.

i will post this on KG also and i hope the KGB allows it to stay up, i think it a very strong and secure thing to do to allow your peers the chance to be givin all the facts and let them decide for themselves. so i appeal to your sense of building a strong scene, please let this one stay.
thanks to all

jason, bone, vader, adam, and anyone else mentioned - please remember that it takes a friend to point at you and say "hey man, wtf?" and still love you for who you are. i hope this doesnt change the relationships i have built with all of you.
thanks
jay
aka
tat2jay


ps, if i missed any important points its either cuz im really tired or cuz i didnt have an opinion on it, feel free to question me about those points and i will clear up what i can, thanks

[vicious_blood]

Jay...I love you.

In a totally homosexual way, of course.

[Arkady]

I'll respond later. I haven't had much in the way of sleep and I'm not too coherent right now. I will say that nothing I read in this post bothered me in the slightest. There again, there are few people I respect more than Jay Harris.

One other thing: I have to say that all I want is for KG and Sanctus to make people happy. We can't make you all happy all the time but we try to steer the ship in ways that will dodge the largest iceburgs.

I'll post more later.

[X]

ya know personally...i just like to say the stuff involving me, was a brilliant work of promotion done by myself. And it worked, not as good as what was later done, i mean that was the icing on the cake.

I still say those actions were MY OWN, no one told me to do it, infact the "others" tried to talk me out of it. I wasn't promoting the night, i was promoting myself, who had to do with the night.

I'm a selfish little twat like that.

[vicious_blood]

I'm a selfish little twat like that.

That's why we like you...
Plus, you use words like "twat".

[Arkady]

ya know personally...i just like to say the stuff involving me, was a brilliant work of promotion done by myself. And it worked, not as good as what was later done, i mean that was the icing on the cake.

I still say those actions were MY OWN, no one told me to do it, infact the "others" tried to talk me out of it. I wasn't promoting the night, i was promoting myself, who had to do with the night.

I'm a selfish little twat like that.

Well, I never said your decision was ill thought out. You weighed out what was important to you and decided that you didn't respect me, Jonathan, and Andrew enough to have a problem with causing a stink for your own gain.

At least you own up to it. You also generally don't come off as a crybaby which is more that I can say for most of the folks that I actually have personal issues with.




Let me make a quick note as an admin here; this thread currently is well within the rules. Let's just keep it that way. No personal attacks and keep it civil. That's all I ask.

[Shadow]

I have a question.

Why not expand the KGB board of Directors?

I think if there were a few more folks involved in the decision making, more of a majority ruling in place and pehaps a voting process for the tougher decisions that are sometimes needed; it might alievate the current issues?

Three gentlemen trying to live personal lives and make choices for the masses doesn't seem like good odds. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Bring the KGB Board of Directors up to 5 or 7, have majority rulings on tough issues, and the Co-Founders (Bone, Vader and Arkady)could be Vice Presidents or CEO's or Kings or whatevers.

Just a suggestion.

[TheSym]

As a typically uninvolved but interested party, I tend to favor those who build a positive environment for me to relax, meet friends, and dance. This is not always the case with the different groups, and it can change depending upon which are personalities involved. I vote with my pocket book and I have no regrets.
Keep up the good work gentlemen, as I look forward to having many good choices for a night out.
smile

[Hardcoregirl]

I elect that Jay be promoted to replace Celestial Dung who is quite absent from forum going-ons.

Jay has been a member since the beginning and is extremely rational, and fair, even if it pisses me off sometimes...

[Mercurygriffin]

I elect that Jay be promoted to replace Celestial Dung who is quite absent from forum going-ons.

Jay has been a member since the beginning and is extremely rational, and fair, even if it pisses me off sometimes...

I don't think that demoting CD to promote jay is the way to go. I love Jay for what he has done for the community but I also see CD as someone who has been there for alot of us as long as we were in the right. Shiting on someone in a bureaucratic way is still shitting on someone.

[Bone]

Currently tied up with holiday obligations and stuff.... will post back to this later when I have more time to sit at the computer.

[Serenity]

I have been away for awhile but the one thing I did notice at Sanctus was everyone having a good time. The key thing to remember is to support ANY type of gothic event, store, etc. in your area. I know people tend to step on others toes when it comes to "leadership" roles but in this scene it is important to stand together. So many other individuals in Knoxville and in Tennessee in general, want to completely shut down gothic-type events or at least protest them. People in TN are more closed-minded, for whatever reason, and will try to stop any type of event like Sanctus. I would say the best thing to do is to stand together and try to support each other as much as you can. Fighting within the scene is what causes the the scene to break up and pretty soon you will be back to square one, no goth nights at all.

Lucky for me when I first moved to TN in 2001, Sanctus had just began and at that time it seemed that everyone really helped out to make it happen. I remember helping setting up for that night and bringing Halloween cookies. Pookie yes, but it was like a family helping to make the night happen and continue.

I really hope that everyones differences can be sorted out. Even from another state or even on tour (where I am in any state, depending on the day) I hope to see Knoxgothic, Sanctus and any goth event continue and grow to its fullest extent.
Good luck guys:)

[Arkady]

I have a question.

Why not expand the KGB board of Directors?

I think if there were a few more folks involved in the decision making, more of a majority ruling in place and pehaps a voting process for the tougher decisions that are sometimes needed; it might alievate the current issues?

Three gentlemen trying to live personal lives and make choices for the masses doesn't seem like good odds. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Bring the KGB Board of Directors up to 5 or 7, have majority rulings on tough issues, and the Co-Founders (Bone, Vader and Arkady)could be Vice Presidents or CEO's or Kings or whatevers.

Just a suggestion.

I don't believe you understand the nature of the "KGBâ€

[Arkady]

After rereading Jay's post, I have to say that it's a very accurate view of many of the dynamics of current drama. I think I pretty much covered any gaps that I could see in my previous post save one; my issues with Caustic.

Well, I have decided that airing this crap on the computer is just fucking retarded. He poked and prodded and called me out in snotty ways all the while shooting his mouth off about things which either were totally untrue or just dead wrong. And for that, he will have to actually confront me face to face to resolve things. We'll then see how he handles face to face confrontation.

Oh, and just so it's clear, as I understand it Andy was contacted by one of the Nash DJ's for a professional reference on Caustic. And Andy said nothing more than Caustic has said over and over. Caustic doesn't do requests and he doesn't give a fuck about the dance floor," The fact is he just plays what he wants to play. That's it.


Fin for now

[Onibubba]

Caustic doesn't do requests and he doesn't give a fuck about the dance floor," The fact is he just plays what he wants to play. That's it.

Fin for now

Not true - He plays requests if he likes 'em He played some Foetus for me one night. Maybe that is what I like about his sets - it is not all about the dance floor, it is also about good music.

Variety, someone once said it was the spice of life, right? I think it was Dom DeLouise...

BTW - After a recent night at Fairbank's, I have a new appreciation for ALL of our DJs. You guys and gals all have some chops you know. You actually play songs in a logical progression that make some sort of cohesive sense. If I haven't said it before, I'll say it now - It is MUCH appreciated!

[rec|use]

Caustic doesn't do requests and he doesn't give a fuck about the dance floor," The fact is he just plays what he wants to play. That's it.

as much as caustic and i used to bicker
i have to say
i respect this a great deal

[Nephilim]

Jay, that is an excellent post.

Arkady, those two posts above mine rock (when are Jimmy and I going to be able to get you out to NV one night to DJ?)

Not true - He plays requests if he likes 'em. He played some Foetus for me one night. Maybe that is what I like about his sets - it is not all about the dance floor, it is also about good music.

While I can appreciate the desire to listen to good music (which, I might add, is an entirely subjective term) a DJs job is the dance floor. Sure, sometimes it's fun to say 'fuck it' and play some off the wall shit, but the DJs job, first and foremost, is to keep the dancefloor going. Which, in the long run, requires a DJ to play things he/she may not like or may not want to hear. Such is the price you pay for being a DJ (hey, that rhymed!)

[Thor]

Jay, that is an excellent post.

Arkady, those two posts above mine rock (when are Jimmy and I going to be able to get you out to NV one night to DJ?)

Not true - He plays requests if he likes 'em. He played some Foetus for me one night. Maybe that is what I like about his sets - it is not all about the dance floor, it is also about good music.

While I can appreciate the desire to listen to good music (which, I might add, is an entirely subjective term) a DJs job is the dance floor. Sure, sometimes it's fun to say 'fuck it' and play some off the wall shit, but the DJs job, first and foremost, is to keep the dancefloor going. Which, in the long run, requires a DJ to play things he/she may not like or may not want to hear. Such is the price you pay for being a DJ (hey, that rhymed!)

I agree, and disagree with the dance floor, and DJ bit. I think music sets the atmosphere, and changing the types, and styles of music can be a good thing even if the dance floor slacks off. At some point it's good to sit back relax, and listen to what's played. But on the other hand some people go to a club to dance most of the night, but not all. People get tired of listening/dancing to the same old thing. New is good. Changing sets is good, changing the tempo is good, or people will get burnt out. I guess being a DJ, is a balancing act... And not everyone will be happy at all times. K'Sahra, Sahra:)

[X]

I play off the wall shit and everyone puts me over all the time....but there in again, my off the wall shit is stuff that pulls those bricks out of the back of your head, and throws them at the frontal part of your head.

I would also like to state one simple thing.

Respect is earned, and can be taken away. It is not a christmas present, it is not a birthday present, and its certinly not in the window at the local pawn shop.

At that point one of three directors had lost a good majority of what respect i might have given him. At the exact moment all of that happened, another completely lost all the respect he had from me, since, forever ago.

The bottom line is, what i did wasn't an act against kg, it wasn't an act for the Feratu. It was slightly an act for myself, but let's be honest i'm a promotion machine, i could have just as easily gotten my points across by saying "oh btw, you should really come hear me spin on such and such night" and the point would have been driven home, when they got into their car and saw the bigass fliers we all passed out. 'nuff said. I originally got pissed off when i was forced to take a stamp, and the bouncers asshole behavior. At that point that was all i needed to discontinue coming out in general. After i sat and thought about everything for an hourish....and anyone who can remember seeing me for that said first hour of sanctus can attest, i was a mold of solid concentration. I thought my shit out thru and thru. I thought of the consequences, and i thought of the afterterms of everything.

The things that constantly popped up in my head, were the politicing everyone always does, even when they ALL knew i was overqualifyed, to handle. The constant usage of someone they always shat on, when talking to me, and the constant usage of someone who shat on them, when talking to me. Here i am, always standing by, mister super nice guy, just waiting for an oppurtunity, smiling all the time, and never having a bad word to say.

The throw in the spice of that bitch at the door being such a fuckstick, with a simple thing that I wanted so i could feel safe. What matter does it make?, I wanted to feel safe, at a point when i didn't feel safe, thats all....and here we go again, with one person, who i was supposed to respect just standing by, looking at me like i'm the idiot, knowing what i was going thru, and turning away in nonsupport.

Then i thought about third person, who had never wronged me. When was wronged said "i'm really sorry about that" a person, who's always been kind, and their family always been kind.

It was a classic psychology heel turn. The bad outweighed the good...even tho the good put on one hell of a fight.

i still constantly say that it never bothered me getting ejected, it was the mannor of such, and the rudeness of the assclowns doing it, and their super jock way of thinking that pissed me off, and makes me never want to go back.

i don't want an apology, quite frankly i wish people would stop bringing it up to strengthen or quieten arguments. Using my thought process to make an argument for yourself is just, shits. Using my lack of having a backbone at one point, to drive your point home is demeaning. Mostly using my bad expieriences to make your bad expieriences look worse, is unspeakably bad words.

so, if everyone wouldn't mind, never say anything about something that happened to me that was fucked up or whatever...wheather it being "bone hijacking my night" or "x got thrown out for no reason" its all old as fuck, and I don't care anymore, why should you?

[Nephilim]

I agree, and disagree with the dance floor, and DJ bit. I think music sets the atmosphere, and changing the types, and styles of music can be a good thing even if the dance floor slacks off. At some point it's good to sit back relax, and listen to what's played. But on the other hand some people go to a club to dance most of the night, but not all. People get tired of listening/dancing to the same old thing. New is good. Changing sets is good, changing the tempo is good, or people will get burnt out. I guess being a DJ, is a balancing act... And not everyone will be happy at all times. K'Sahra, Sahra:)

Well, it isn't about playing the same old stuff over and over, nor is it playing the same tempo all the time. Hell, Jimmy and I play all kinds of stuff from 192 bpm (beats per minute) to like 60 bpm. We play new and old stuff and some stuff people have never even heard of. We try to have fun with it, but still, our main concern is whether or not people are dancing. It is a balancing act, exactly. Sometimes you can balance all the stuff no problem, sometimes the balance goes and everything crashes all at once.

DJing is a LOT harder than everyone thinks it is, expecially if you do any mixing of the stuff you play whatsoever.